Discussion:
Space shuttle for space tourism and first stage of a TSTO.
(too old to reply)
David Spain
2010-01-07 21:01:23 UTC
Permalink
...
And this for an initial investment of $42 million.
Any estimate on the cost to retrofit the wings with
fuel tankage?

How does the orbiter launch? Vertically with a special
launch pad as it does now, or horizontally from an airstrip?

If the former, why not still use SRB's for assist?

Why discard the ET at all? If you're not using it for fuel
its a high volume space, that if rigid enough to handle
G loads with SRBs attached give you even MORE payload
volume (if not capacity because of structural limitations)
than the payload bay....

Dave

PS: For the rest of you, sorry for stoking the fire, but
I gotta know where this is going...

Something about being partial to very fast 57 Chevys...

;-)
Pat Flannery
2010-01-07 23:40:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Spain
PS: For the rest of you, sorry for stoking the fire, but
I gotta know where this is going...
Something about being partial to very fast 57 Chevys...
I'll bet the Eaglepanzees can take far higher g-loads than human
astronauts, and are more likely to perform outrageous hijinks and
hilarious monkeyshines while on-orbit also.
Wally Schirra simply put the lens cover on the TV camera when he became
angry on Apollo 7...an Eaglepanzee would have hurled feces straight at
that camera, and that would have been just for starters.
I want an all-mutant monkey crew to be my contribution to what is
evolving here.
I can think of few things more heartwarming than watching a beaked
Chimp-like creature hatch from an egg. ;-)


Pat
Brian Gaff
2010-01-07 23:09:40 UTC
Permalink
What you all been taking today?
Brian
--
Brian Gaff....Note, this account does not accept Bcc: email.
graphics are great, but the blind can't hear them
Email: ***@blueyonder.co.uk
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Post by Pat Flannery
Post by David Spain
PS: For the rest of you, sorry for stoking the fire, but
I gotta know where this is going...
Something about being partial to very fast 57 Chevys...
I'll bet the Eaglepanzees can take far higher g-loads than human
astronauts, and are more likely to perform outrageous hijinks and
hilarious monkeyshines while on-orbit also.
Wally Schirra simply put the lens cover on the TV camera when he became
angry on Apollo 7...an Eaglepanzee would have hurled feces straight at
that camera, and that would have been just for starters.
I want an all-mutant monkey crew to be my contribution to what is evolving
here.
I can think of few things more heartwarming than watching a beaked
Chimp-like creature hatch from an egg. ;-)
Pat
OM
2010-01-08 00:12:08 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 07 Jan 2010 23:09:40 GMT, "Brian Gaff"
Post by Brian Gaff
What you all been taking today?
...I'd rather Pat be on his halluciongenics and post than Charlie
Murphy posting with that ten-foot corncob up his ass and his nose up
the L2 trolls' collective asses.

OM

--

]=====================================[
] OMBlog - http://www.io.com/~o_m/omworld [
] Let's face it: Sometimes you *need* [
] an obnoxious opinion in your day! [
]=====================================[
Brian Gaff
2010-01-08 09:37:26 UTC
Permalink
Well, I've no idea about all that, so I'll sit here smiling and assume the
worst.

Brian
--
Brian Gaff....Note, this account does not accept Bcc: email.
graphics are great, but the blind can't hear them
Email: ***@blueyonder.co.uk
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Post by OM
On Thu, 07 Jan 2010 23:09:40 GMT, "Brian Gaff"
Post by Brian Gaff
What you all been taking today?
...I'd rather Pat be on his halluciongenics and post than Charlie
Murphy posting with that ten-foot corncob up his ass and his nose up
the L2 trolls' collective asses.
OM
--
]=====================================[
] OMBlog - http://www.io.com/~o_m/omworld [
] Let's face it: Sometimes you *need* [
] an obnoxious opinion in your day! [
]=====================================[
OM
2010-01-08 19:22:47 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 08 Jan 2010 09:37:26 GMT, "Brian Gaff"
Post by Brian Gaff
Well, I've no idea about all that, so I'll sit here smiling and assume the
worst.
...No, the worst is when Charlie starts waving that corncob around,
demanding that everyone smell it and comment on how fragrant it is.
Which is what most of his posts consist of.

OM

--

]=====================================[
] OMBlog - http://www.io.com/~o_m/omworld [
] Let's face it: Sometimes you *need* [
] an obnoxious opinion in your day! [
]=====================================[
Greg D. Moore (Strider)
2010-01-08 20:06:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by OM
On Fri, 08 Jan 2010 09:37:26 GMT, "Brian Gaff"
Post by Brian Gaff
Well, I've no idea about all that, so I'll sit here smiling and assume the
worst.
...No, the worst is when Charlie starts waving that corncob around,
demanding that everyone smell it and comment on how fragrant it is.
Which is what most of his posts consist of.
And most of yours are slinging similar material around and expecting people
to thank you for making the place smell better.

OM, you just keep digging your reputation a deeper and deeper hole. Really,
just stop. You have a problem with Charlie and everyone else at L2, great.
I'm down with that. But don't go dragging it around all the place. The
only person you're hurting is yourself.
OM
2010-01-08 23:30:52 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 8 Jan 2010 15:06:08 -0500, "Greg D. Moore \(Strider\)"
Post by Greg D. Moore (Strider)
OM, you just keep digging your reputation a deeper and deeper hole. Really,
just stop. You have a problem with Charlie and everyone else at L2, great.
I'm down with that. But don't go dragging it around all the place. The
only person you're hurting is yourself.
...Greg, the fact remains that I was wronged in this case, and I'll be
damned if Charlie's going to get off scott free for it. As long as he
continues to swagger around here and throw his ego around, I'll be
there to ram it back down his throat. He's a pathetic lying bastard,
and deserves the derision.

OM

--

]=====================================[
] OMBlog - http://www.io.com/~o_m/omworld [
] Let's face it: Sometimes you *need* [
] an obnoxious opinion in your day! [
]=====================================[
Greg D. Moore (Strider)
2010-01-09 00:53:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by OM
On Fri, 8 Jan 2010 15:06:08 -0500, "Greg D. Moore \(Strider\)"
Post by Greg D. Moore (Strider)
OM, you just keep digging your reputation a deeper and deeper hole.
Really,
just stop. You have a problem with Charlie and everyone else at L2, great.
I'm down with that. But don't go dragging it around all the place. The
only person you're hurting is yourself.
...Greg, the fact remains that I was wronged in this case, and I'll be
damned if Charlie's going to get off scott free for it. As long as he
continues to swagger around here and throw his ego around, I'll be
there to ram it back down his throat. He's a pathetic lying bastard,
and deserves the derision.
OM
Fine, If you think he's committed a crime as alluded to in you prior post,
take it up with the authorities.

As for derision, the more you act like this, the more YOU get, whether you
want to or not. The only person you're making look bad is yourself. So
even if your goal were right, you're going about it the wrong way.
--
Greg Moore
Ask me about lily, an RPI based CMC.
OM
2010-01-09 01:12:27 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 8 Jan 2010 19:53:08 -0500, "Greg D. Moore \(Strider\)"
Post by Greg D. Moore (Strider)
As for derision, the more you act like this, the more YOU get, whether you
want to or not. The only person you're making look bad is yourself. So
even if your goal were right, you're going about it the wrong way.
...Otay Greg, let's put up or shut up: if I'm going about it "the
wrong way", what, in *your* opinion, is the "right" way? The one that
would guarantee results? All I hear is "you're going about it the
wrong way" and "you're damaging your reputation". Well, fine. If
there's another way, then let's hear it. I'll wait.

[Taps fingers stacatto in anticipation]

OM

--

]=====================================[
] OMBlog - http://www.io.com/~o_m/omworld [
] Let's face it: Sometimes you *need* [
] an obnoxious opinion in your day! [
]=====================================[
Greg D. Moore (Strider)
2010-01-09 04:07:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by OM
On Fri, 8 Jan 2010 19:53:08 -0500, "Greg D. Moore \(Strider\)"
Post by Greg D. Moore (Strider)
As for derision, the more you act like this, the more YOU get, whether you
want to or not. The only person you're making look bad is yourself. So
even if your goal were right, you're going about it the wrong way.
...Otay Greg, let's put up or shut up: if I'm going about it "the
wrong way", what, in *your* opinion, is the "right" way? The one that
would guarantee results? All I hear is "you're going about it the
wrong way" and "you're damaging your reputation". Well, fine. If
there's another way, then let's hear it. I'll wait.
Well let's see, you already deleted the one suggestion I made.

Secondly act like an adult. If Charlie is so terrible he'll hang himself.
Put yourself above the fray and you'll earn people's respect.

But that's probably too high-faluting for you.

Let's put it this way, have you seen a single person in this newsgroup cheer
you on? Suggest you're doing the right thing?

Now compare your style to say Henry's or dare I say Mary's. People who are
well respected for reasons in addition to their knowledge.
--
Greg Moore
Ask me about lily, an RPI based CMC.
OM
2010-01-10 02:58:31 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 8 Jan 2010 23:07:54 -0500, "Greg D. Moore \(Strider\)"
Post by Greg D. Moore (Strider)
Well let's see, you already deleted the one suggestion I made.
...What? Just ignore him?
Post by Greg D. Moore (Strider)
Secondly act like an adult. If Charlie is so terrible he'll hang himself.
...I'd rather hang him myself. In this case, it's more rewarding.
Post by Greg D. Moore (Strider)
Put yourself above the fray and you'll earn people's respect.
...Respect isn't going to make up for what happened. Greg.
Post by Greg D. Moore (Strider)
But that's probably too high-faluting for you.
...Taking the high road means nothing if the road ends up going
nowhere.
Post by Greg D. Moore (Strider)
Let's put it this way, have you seen a single person in this newsgroup cheer
you on? Suggest you're doing the right thing?
...No, but to be totally honest I really could care less right now.
Post by Greg D. Moore (Strider)
Now compare your style to say Henry's or dare I say Mary's. People who are
well respected for reasons in addition to their knowledge.
...Note that both of those people aren't exactly posting these days.
Of course, I'll get blamed for that just because I'm such an easy
target. Then again, it's always easier to find a scapegoat than
actually go after those responsible.

Either way, you still haven't answered the question, Greg. Where's the
alternative that works? Just shutting up and ignoring Charlie isn't an
option that'll have produce any punitive results against the pathetic
bastard. Let's see a course of action that *will* work, eh?

OM

--

]=====================================[
] OMBlog - http://www.io.com/~o_m/omworld [
] Let's face it: Sometimes you *need* [
] an obnoxious opinion in your day! [
]=====================================[
Greg D. Moore (Strider)
2010-01-10 03:14:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by OM
On Fri, 8 Jan 2010 23:07:54 -0500, "Greg D. Moore \(Strider\)"
Post by Greg D. Moore (Strider)
Well let's see, you already deleted the one suggestion I made.
...What? Just ignore him?
That is NOT what I suggested in what you clipped. Go find it for yourself.
Post by OM
Post by Greg D. Moore (Strider)
Secondly act like an adult. If Charlie is so terrible he'll hang himself.
...I'd rather hang him myself. In this case, it's more rewarding.
Then go hang yourself. It would improve this newsgroup.
Post by OM
Post by Greg D. Moore (Strider)
Put yourself above the fray and you'll earn people's respect.
...Respect isn't going to make up for what happened. Greg.
Post by Greg D. Moore (Strider)
But that's probably too high-faluting for you.
...Taking the high road means nothing if the road ends up going
nowhere.
Post by Greg D. Moore (Strider)
Let's put it this way, have you seen a single person in this newsgroup cheer
you on? Suggest you're doing the right thing?
...No, but to be totally honest I really could care less right now.
So you admit, basically you don't give a shit the damage you do. You just
want to be an ass. So noted.
Post by OM
Post by Greg D. Moore (Strider)
Now compare your style to say Henry's or dare I say Mary's. People who are
well respected for reasons in addition to their knowledge.
...Note that both of those people aren't exactly posting these days.
Of course, I'll get blamed for that just because I'm such an easy
target. Then again, it's always easier to find a scapegoat than
actually go after those responsible.
You don't get it, you are one of the people responsible for the current
state of the newsgroup.
Post by OM
Either way, you still haven't answered the question, Greg. Where's the
alternative that works? Just shutting up and ignoring Charlie isn't an
option that'll have produce any punitive results against the pathetic
bastard. Let's see a course of action that *will* work, eh?
At this point, I give up OM. You've made it clear that you don't care, you
just want to be hurtful and vindictive. I'm sorry to hear that. It's your
pathetic live, not mine.
Post by OM
OM
--
Greg Moore
Ask me about lily, an RPI based CMC.
The Big DP
2010-01-11 18:47:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by OM
On Fri, 8 Jan 2010 19:53:08 -0500, "Greg D. Moore \(Strider\)"
Post by Greg D. Moore (Strider)
As for derision, the more you act like this, the more YOU get, whether you
want to or not. The only person you're making look bad is yourself. So
even if your goal were right, you're going about it the wrong way.
...Otay Greg, let's put up or shut up: if I'm going about it "the
wrong way", what, in *your* opinion, is the "right" way? The one that
would guarantee results? All I hear is "you're going about it the
wrong way" and "you're damaging your reputation". Well, fine. If
there's another way, then let's hear it. I'll wait.
[Taps fingers stacatto in anticipation]
OM
****Waves Hands**** Ask me! Ask me!

Hey Bob.....I don't care one way or the other what happened to you...and
with each of your venomous postings about other 'bad' people, funny it never
seems to be you who's the jerk it always seems to be other people. You can
actually worry about your supposed reputation after the way you've acted and
the things you've posted here? Really? REALLY?

Well you know what? I find other's to be just as annoying as you, and I
don't feel the need to be a vile cretinous slimeball.

Your attitude and your passion would be great.....if you applied them in a
positive fashion and actually HAD something to say...well, then this news
group would be better for it. But, most of the time it is this or worse and
then you're shocked that people have problems with you. The audacity amazes
me.

I admit to having nothing much to say, that's why I mostly lurk, but at
least I admit to having nothing much to say.

Grrrrr
Greg D. Moore (Strider)
2010-01-11 22:59:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by The Big DP
I admit to having nothing much to say, that's why I mostly lurk, but at
least I admit to having nothing much to say.
Bah, now I can't complain the lurkers support me in email, not if they come
out and delurk like that. :-)
Post by The Big DP
Grrrrr
Me
2010-01-08 11:51:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by OM
On Thu, 07 Jan 2010 23:09:40 GMT, "Brian Gaff"
Post by Brian Gaff
What you all been taking today?
...I'd rather Pat be on his halluciongenics and post than Charlie
Murphy posting with that ten-foot corncob up his ass and his nose up
the L2 trolls' collective asses.
You are just jealous
Me
2010-01-08 11:54:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by OM
On Thu, 07 Jan 2010 23:09:40 GMT, "Brian Gaff"
Post by Brian Gaff
What you all been taking today?
...I'd rather Pat be on his halluciongenics and post than Charlie
Murphy posting with that ten-foot corncob up his ass and his nose up
the L2 trolls' collective asses.
Again, you demonstrate the reasons that you were rightly banned.

Once an asshole, always an asshole
OM
2010-01-08 19:20:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Me
Again, you demonstrate the reasons that you were rightly banned.
...You one again conveniently ignore the point, you ignorant son of a
bitch. I broke not *one* *single* *rule* on NSF. You and Dwayne led a
smear campaign, and I was tried by a kangaroo court. Had a real judge
been presiding over this case, you bastards would have wound up having
the book thrown at you.
Post by Me
Once an asshole, always an asshole
...An asshole has class. You are just a jerk. More specifically, a
jerk*off*.

OM

--

]=====================================[
] OMBlog - http://www.io.com/~o_m/omworld [
] Let's face it: Sometimes you *need* [
] an obnoxious opinion in your day! [
]=====================================[
Me
2010-01-08 20:16:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by OM
Post by Me
Again, you demonstrate the reasons that you were rightly banned.
...You one again conveniently ignore the point, you ignorant son of a
bitch. I broke not *one* *single* *rule* on NSF. You and Dwayne led a
smear campaign, and I was tried by a kangaroo court. Had a real judge
been presiding over this case, you bastards would have wound up having
the book thrown at you.
Post by Me
Once an asshole, always an asshole
...An asshole has class. You are just a jerk. More specifically, a
jerk*off*.
Not in the real world. Asshole is lower than a jerk.

There was no smear, just the truth.
OM
2010-01-08 23:25:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Me
Not in the real world. Asshole is lower than a jerk.
...No, it's not. Only in your pathetic view of things.
Post by Me
There was no smear, just the truth.
...The truth being that the NASA employees who provide L2 with the
"exclusive material" threatened to pull all support if I weren't
totally banned from NSF?

For not having violated *one* rule of NSF.

...Maybe it's time to drop a line to my representatives asking how
legit it is for NASA employees to be contributing official NASA
documents to a for-profit website? Especially when we taxpayers have
already paid for the data?

OM

--

]=====================================[
] OMBlog - http://www.io.com/~o_m/omworld [
] Let's face it: Sometimes you *need* [
] an obnoxious opinion in your day! [
]=====================================[
Fred J. McCall
2010-01-09 05:36:03 UTC
Permalink
Oh, Jesus, here he goes again.

Someone tell me if OM ever gets over this and stops whining like a
baby.

<plonk>

OM <***@sci.space.history> wrote:

:On Fri, 8 Jan 2010 12:16:21 -0800 (PST), Me <***@yahoo.com>
:wrote:
:
:>Not in the real world. Asshole is lower than a jerk.
:
:...No, it's not. Only in your pathetic view of things.
:
:>There was no smear, just the truth.
:
:...The truth being that the NASA employees who provide L2 with the
:"exclusive material" threatened to pull all support if I weren't
:totally banned from NSF?
:
:For not having violated *one* rule of NSF.
:
:...Maybe it's time to drop a line to my representatives asking how
:legit it is for NASA employees to be contributing official NASA
:documents to a for-profit website? Especially when we taxpayers have
:already paid for the data?
:
: OM
Pat Flannery
2010-01-09 10:18:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Me
Post by OM
Post by Me
Once an asshole, always an asshole
...An asshole has class. You are just a jerk. More specifically, a
jerk*off*.
Not in the real world. Asshole is lower than a jerk.
You do both realize that this reads like some sort of gay flirting code
talk, don't you? :-D

Pat
OM
2010-01-09 08:34:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pat Flannery
Post by Me
Post by OM
Post by Me
Once an asshole, always an asshole
...An asshole has class. You are just a jerk. More specifically, a
jerk*off*.
Not in the real world. Asshole is lower than a jerk.
...Actually, I stand corrected. You're neither a jerk or a jerkoff.
You're a pathetic little mewling catamite with even more pathetic
delusions of intelligence. "Troll" only is the tip of the iceberg when
describing you, Charlie.
Post by Pat Flannery
You do both realize that this reads like some sort of gay flirting code
talk, don't you? :-D
...Careful, Patrick. He'll start claiming you've got some sort of
sexual hangup as well.

OM

--

]=====================================[
] OMBlog - http://www.io.com/~o_m/omworld [
] Let's face it: Sometimes you *need* [
] an obnoxious opinion in your day! [
]=====================================[
Robert Clark
2010-01-09 13:51:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pat Flannery
Post by OM
Post by Me
Once an asshole, always an asshole
...An asshole has class. You are just a jerk. More specifically, a
jerk*off*.
Not in the real world.  Asshole is lower than a jerk.
You do both realize that this reads like some sort of gay flirting code
talk, don't you? :-D
Pat
That's one way to get the conversation back on track.

Bob Clark
Pat Flannery
2010-01-08 06:23:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brian Gaff
What you all been taking today?
It's not easy crossing a omnivorous simian with a large carnivorous
bird. This is a _lot_ more challenging than crossing the Venus Fly-Trap
with the redwood tree, and all that led to was a bonsai tree with the
personality of Godzilla rather than something that could eat small
aircraft as I intended.
So far all I've got is a baby winged "something" that looks like a
reject from "The Wizard Of Oz", and is going to have a hard time working
the flight controls by poking at them with the stunted wings it has
where the arms should be.
The horrifying results of its attempts to nurse from its mother's
breasts with its beak I will leave to your imagination.
She won't go anywhere near it now, and I doubt she ever will
again...even after all the stitches are removed.
You know, it would be possible to convert a Smart Car into a main battle
tank at fairly low cost if your opponents were, say, squirrels.

Pat
OM
2010-01-08 00:13:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pat Flannery
I'll bet the Eaglepanzees can take far higher g-loads than human
...Chimpeagles sounds better.

OM

--

]=====================================[
] OMBlog - http://www.io.com/~o_m/omworld [
] Let's face it: Sometimes you *need* [
] an obnoxious opinion in your day! [
]=====================================[
Robert Clark
2010-01-08 18:48:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Spain
...
 And this for an initial investment of $42 million.
Any estimate on the cost to retrofit the wings with
fuel tankage?
How does the orbiter launch? Vertically with a special
launch pad as it does now, or horizontally from an airstrip?
If the former, why not still use SRB's for assist?
Why discard the ET at all? If you're not using it for fuel
its a high volume space, that if rigid enough to handle
G loads with SRBs attached give you even MORE payload
volume (if not capacity because of structural limitations)
than the payload bay....
Dave
PS: For the rest of you, sorry for stoking the fire, but
    I gotta know where this is going...
    Something about being partial to very fast 57 Chevys...
;-)
A troll is when you post something you don't believe in just to start
an argument or to be controversial. I think you've seen enough of my
posts to know that's not something I'm into. It's possible of course
that it's wrong. All that means, of course, is that the idea is just
wrong. All this rending of clothes and gnashing of teeth is really
over the top.

If you did use wet wings for tankage, that would add greatly to the
weight of the wings. You would need extra support added of wing spars
and ribs, as well as extra support members connecting the wings to the
fuselage. But I certainly don't think it would cost say in the range
of $100 million, which is how much more the Virgin Galactic
development cost is over the purchase price of $42 million for the
orbiters. $100 million is approaching the price of entire jet
airliners, including their engines, that do have such wing
strengthening.
(It might cost that much if the government gave one of the aerospace
companies a cost-plus contract to do it. But a commercial company
would have better sense than to do it that way.)
The orbiter would be launched vertically. You probably would not want
the entire weight of the vehicle to be resting on just the engine
nozzles. You could have support pillars that lead up to connect onto
the airframe. Remember with the current shuttle after the SRB's
jettison that 1,000,000 lbs thrust from the engines is being
transmitted up through the airframe.
I'm not a fan of solid rockets for manned missions. The shuttle SRB's
are also expensive also. It had been thought that reusing the casings
would cut costs, but it turned out, retrieving them, cleaning them,
and refilling them costs nearly as much as using new solid motors on
each flight.
The problem with the ET is that it is disposable. I want a fully
reusable vehicle to cut costs. If I recall the cost of the ET is $100
million per flight, another quite expensive item.
In regards to its feasibility, keep in mind that the orbiter is a
rocket after all. And it does have it's own engines. After ET
separation it is essentially operating in the fashion I'm suggesting
with it's own on board fuel supply, albeit with much weaker engines.
And with the ET still attached, after SRB sep, it is operating as a
rocket with much higher thrust than what I'm suggesting and the
aerodynamic stresses and structural loads are even worse than in my
scenario since the ET would carry even more fuel and it is in a non-
axial position. What I'm suggesting is actually *easier* than the
current propulsion method of the shuttle system after SRB separation.


Bob Clark
Robert Clark
2010-01-09 16:24:06 UTC
Permalink
For the space tourism use or hypersonic transport use, note that
Virgin Galactic is charging $200,000 just for space tourism and they
believe they can make a profit based on a $150 million development
cost, while carrying only 6 passengers per flight.
Carrying 100 passengers in my scenario would allow you to reduce the
price significantly which would actually increase revenues at this
high number of passengers with additionally, as I'm arguing, a lower
development cost. Note also this would allow a hypersonic transport
role for a large number of passengers in the airliner capacity range
which actually would probably be a larger market. Imagine trips to
Asia instead of taking a whole day only take 90 minutes. Note too this
large number of passengers, at this short transport time anywhere in
the world raises the possibility of military applications.

For the first stage booster use, it's very important to remember the
Air Force believes using such reusable first stage boosters can cut
launch costs by 50%. Now notice the similarity of the Lockheed first
stage booster proposal to the space shuttle orbiter:

Plans for future re--usable space launch X-plane hatched.
Posted by Guy Norris at 3/31/2009 3:41 PM CDT
http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/blogs/space/index.jsp?plckController=Blog&plckBlogPage=BlogViewPost&newspaperUserId=04ce340e-4b63-4d23-9695-d49ab661f385&plckPostId=Blog%3a04ce340e-4b63-4d23-9695-d49ab661f385Post%3a515cca66-2055-4902-bce3-400832bdc2a4&plckScript=blogScript&plckElementId=blogDest

A more detailed discussion:

USAF Seeks Reusable Booster Ideas.
May 14, 2009
By Graham Warwick
"The plan is to conduct an integrated demonstration of technologies
and processes culminating in a subscale X-plane vehicle that would fly
by 2017-18 and take the concept to a technology readiness level of 6,
ready to enter full-scale development.
"AFRL has several ground-based experiments already under way involving
structures, controls and systems for an operationally responsive
launch vehicle. The work is focused on a reference concept for an
unmanned vertical takeoff and horizontal landing reusable booster
capable of turnaround in 24-48 hours and launch within 4-8 hours of a
request."
http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/story_channel.jsp?channel=space&id=news/Reuse051409.xml

This is speaking of only of a subscale demonstrator by 2017-2018. I'm
arguing that by using already produced airframes such as the shuttle
orbiter or Buran you could have *full scale* demonstrators at a
markedly reduced price in a shorter time frame. Note too the sort
turnaround time and quite short preparation time to a launch would be
quite important for a hypersonic commercial transport or military
transport role.

A detailed report on the Air Force's "Reusable Booster System"
program is given here:

Spacelift Development Plan.
http://www.acq.osd.mil/nsso/conference/briefs/HampstenSDP%20Public%20Release.ppt

Notice the similarity of the first stage boosters to the shuttle
orbiter in the diagram on page 8.


Bob Clark
Robert Clark
2010-01-10 15:03:16 UTC
Permalink
Nice video lecture here by Derek Webber of Spaceport Associates on
the market possibilities of suborbital space tourism and hypersonic
point-to-point transport:

05 August 2009
Updated FastForward Study Group overview presentation, Derek Webber
video presentation on suborbital/point-to-point transportation.
http://www.sei.aero/com/news/newsindex.php?id=14

He discusses a market study he took part in by Futron/Zogby from 2002
on suborbital space tourism at a price point of $100,000. Virgin
Galactic will charge $200,000 but Webber concludes the market in the
U.S. alone might be $1 billion - $2 billion. It looks like at an
initial investment of $150 million, Sir Richard Branson might have
known what he was doing.
The market study is available here:

Space Tourism Market Study.
http://www.futron.com/pdf/resource_center/white_papers/SpaceTourismMarketStudy.pdf


Bob Clark
J. Clarke
2010-01-10 18:58:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Clark
Nice video lecture here by Derek Webber of Spaceport Associates on
the market possibilities of suborbital space tourism and hypersonic
05 August 2009
Updated FastForward Study Group overview presentation, Derek Webber
video presentation on suborbital/point-to-point transportation.
http://www.sei.aero/com/news/newsindex.php?id=14
He discusses a market study he took part in by Futron/Zogby from 2002
on suborbital space tourism at a price point of $100,000. Virgin
Galactic will charge $200,000 but Webber concludes the market in the
U.S. alone might be $1 billion - $2 billion. It looks like at an
initial investment of $150 million, Sir Richard Branson might have
known what he was doing.
Space Tourism Market Study.
http://www.futron.com/pdf/resource_center/white_papers/SpaceTourismMarketStudy.pdf
If the proposal here is to somehow use Space Shuttle orbiters as passenger
vehicles, can you get insurance on something that NASA considers to no
longer be flight-worthy?
j***@specsol.spam.sux.com
2010-01-10 19:19:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Robert Clark
Nice video lecture here by Derek Webber of Spaceport Associates on
the market possibilities of suborbital space tourism and hypersonic
05 August 2009
Updated FastForward Study Group overview presentation, Derek Webber
video presentation on suborbital/point-to-point transportation.
http://www.sei.aero/com/news/newsindex.php?id=14
He discusses a market study he took part in by Futron/Zogby from 2002
on suborbital space tourism at a price point of $100,000. Virgin
Galactic will charge $200,000 but Webber concludes the market in the
U.S. alone might be $1 billion - $2 billion. It looks like at an
initial investment of $150 million, Sir Richard Branson might have
known what he was doing.
Space Tourism Market Study.
http://www.futron.com/pdf/resource_center/white_papers/SpaceTourismMarketStudy.pdf
If the proposal here is to somehow use Space Shuttle orbiters as passenger
vehicles, can you get insurance on something that NASA considers to no
longer be flight-worthy?
Not to mention getting approval from a regulatory agency like the FAA to
fly paying passengers, which is no minor challenge with approved aircraft.
--
Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.

--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: ***@netfront.net ---
J. Clarke
2010-01-10 20:09:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by j***@specsol.spam.sux.com
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Robert Clark
Nice video lecture here by Derek Webber of Spaceport Associates on
the market possibilities of suborbital space tourism and hypersonic
05 August 2009
Updated FastForward Study Group overview presentation, Derek Webber
video presentation on suborbital/point-to-point transportation.
http://www.sei.aero/com/news/newsindex.php?id=14
He discusses a market study he took part in by Futron/Zogby from
2002 on suborbital space tourism at a price point of $100,000.
Virgin Galactic will charge $200,000 but Webber concludes the
market in the U.S. alone might be $1 billion - $2 billion. It looks
like at an initial investment of $150 million, Sir Richard Branson
might have known what he was doing.
Space Tourism Market Study.
http://www.futron.com/pdf/resource_center/white_papers/SpaceTourismMarketStudy.pdf
If the proposal here is to somehow use Space Shuttle orbiters as
passenger vehicles, can you get insurance on something that NASA
considers to no longer be flight-worthy?
Not to mention getting approval from a regulatory agency like the FAA to
fly paying passengers, which is no minor challenge with approved aircraft.
A good point.

And without insurability or good prospects for FAA approval, one suspects
that financial backing would be hard to find unless you found somebody in
need of a write-off, which isn't very likely in this market.
j***@specsol.spam.sux.com
2010-01-11 00:25:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. Clarke
Post by j***@specsol.spam.sux.com
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Robert Clark
Nice video lecture here by Derek Webber of Spaceport Associates on
the market possibilities of suborbital space tourism and hypersonic
05 August 2009
Updated FastForward Study Group overview presentation, Derek Webber
video presentation on suborbital/point-to-point transportation.
http://www.sei.aero/com/news/newsindex.php?id=14
He discusses a market study he took part in by Futron/Zogby from
2002 on suborbital space tourism at a price point of $100,000.
Virgin Galactic will charge $200,000 but Webber concludes the
market in the U.S. alone might be $1 billion - $2 billion. It looks
like at an initial investment of $150 million, Sir Richard Branson
might have known what he was doing.
Space Tourism Market Study.
http://www.futron.com/pdf/resource_center/white_papers/SpaceTourismMarketStudy.pdf
If the proposal here is to somehow use Space Shuttle orbiters as
passenger vehicles, can you get insurance on something that NASA
considers to no longer be flight-worthy?
Not to mention getting approval from a regulatory agency like the FAA to
fly paying passengers, which is no minor challenge with approved aircraft.
A good point.
And without insurability or good prospects for FAA approval, one suspects
that financial backing would be hard to find unless you found somebody in
need of a write-off, which isn't very likely in this market.
One can always (in most countries) self insure, but there is no getting
around having regulatory approval for flying paying passengers, even
in most third-world countries.
--
Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.

--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: ***@netfront.net ---
J. Clarke
2010-01-11 01:07:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by j***@specsol.spam.sux.com
Post by J. Clarke
Post by j***@specsol.spam.sux.com
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Robert Clark
Nice video lecture here by Derek Webber of Spaceport Associates on
the market possibilities of suborbital space tourism and
05 August 2009
Updated FastForward Study Group overview presentation, Derek
Webber video presentation on suborbital/point-to-point
transportation. http://www.sei.aero/com/news/newsindex.php?id=14
He discusses a market study he took part in by Futron/Zogby from
2002 on suborbital space tourism at a price point of $100,000.
Virgin Galactic will charge $200,000 but Webber concludes the
market in the U.S. alone might be $1 billion - $2 billion. It
looks like at an initial investment of $150 million, Sir Richard
Branson might have known what he was doing.
Space Tourism Market Study.
http://www.futron.com/pdf/resource_center/white_papers/SpaceTourismMarketStudy.pdf
If the proposal here is to somehow use Space Shuttle orbiters as
passenger vehicles, can you get insurance on something that NASA
considers to no longer be flight-worthy?
Not to mention getting approval from a regulatory agency like the FAA to
fly paying passengers, which is no minor challenge with approved aircraft.
A good point.
And without insurability or good prospects for FAA approval, one
suspects that financial backing would be hard to find unless you
found somebody in need of a write-off, which isn't very likely in
this market.
One can always (in most countries) self insure, but there is no getting
around having regulatory approval for flying paying passengers, even
in most third-world countries.
The financial backers are going to want to see enough insurance to recover
their investment. You can't self-insure for that.
Fred J. McCall
2010-01-10 21:36:10 UTC
Permalink
***@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:

:In sci.physics J. Clarke <***@cox.net> wrote:
:> Robert Clark wrote:
:>> Nice video lecture here by Derek Webber of Spaceport Associates on
:>> the market possibilities of suborbital space tourism and hypersonic
:>> point-to-point transport:
:>>
:>> 05 August 2009
:>> Updated FastForward Study Group overview presentation, Derek Webber
:>> video presentation on suborbital/point-to-point transportation.
:>> http://www.sei.aero/com/news/newsindex.php?id=14
:>>
:>> He discusses a market study he took part in by Futron/Zogby from 2002
:>> on suborbital space tourism at a price point of $100,000. Virgin
:>> Galactic will charge $200,000 but Webber concludes the market in the
:>> U.S. alone might be $1 billion - $2 billion. It looks like at an
:>> initial investment of $150 million, Sir Richard Branson might have
:>> known what he was doing.
:>> The market study is available here:
:>>
:>> Space Tourism Market Study.
:>> http://www.futron.com/pdf/resource_center/white_papers/SpaceTourismMarketStudy.pdf
:>
:> If the proposal here is to somehow use Space Shuttle orbiters as passenger
:> vehicles, can you get insurance on something that NASA considers to no
:> longer be flight-worthy?
:
:Not to mention getting approval from a regulatory agency like the FAA to
:fly paying passengers, which is no minor challenge with approved aircraft.
:

Not required for spacecraft.
--
"Ignorance is preferable to error, and he is less remote from the
truth who believes nothing than he who believes what is wrong."
-- Thomas Jefferson
Robert Clark
2010-01-13 18:14:35 UTC
Permalink
There are two separate considerations in this topic: 1.)is it
technically feasible, and 2.)is it financially better than just a new
system.

For the first question, I don't think anyone thinks it is literally
impossible based on the fact that the shuttle orbiter itself already
acts as an independent rocket with quite a huge fuel tank after the
SRB's jettison.
See the video of shuttle orbiters engines firing with the ET attached
after SRB sep here:

NASA posts Solid Rocket Booster Video.
Published on 10 Jul 2006 at 3:54 am. 4 Comments.
Filed under In the News, Video.
http://www.dirtyskies.com/index.php/2006/07/10/nasa-posts-solid-rocket-booster-video/

Other images:

Loading Image...

Loading Image...

The ET tank is larger than the shuttle orbiter. My proposal would be
to fit a much smaller tank, both in dimensions and mass, inside the
payload bay. The strengthening to the airframe would be less than what
is already on the shuttle for securing the ET under full engine power.
The SSME's also put out much greater thrust than the engines I'm
suggesting replacing them with. Then the SSME's already subject the
orbiter to much greater loads than what I'm suggesting.
In regards to the second question, you could conceivably purchase the
entire airframe including avionics, wiring etc. for under $6 million
if you purchased a Buran. Undoubtedly starting from scratch to build
an entire spacecraft of this size would cost in the hundreds of
millions of dollars.
It is also unlikely merely strengthening the payload bay would cost in
the range of hundreds of millions of dollars, since jet airliners have
such strengthening of the wing fuel tanks with the total cost of the
entire airliner including engines in the $150 million to $250 million
dollar range.

Bob Clark
Derek Lyons
2010-01-13 19:55:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Clark
The ET tank is larger than the shuttle orbiter. My proposal would be
to fit a much smaller tank, both in dimensions and mass, inside the
payload bay.
Which gains you about 10 seconds, at best, of SSME burn time.

D.
--
Touch-twice life. Eat. Drink. Laugh.

http://derekl1963.livejournal.com/

-Resolved: To be more temperate in my postings.
Oct 5th, 2004 JDL
Androcles
2010-01-13 20:09:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Derek Lyons
Post by Robert Clark
The ET tank is larger than the shuttle orbiter. My proposal would be
to fit a much smaller tank, both in dimensions and mass, inside the
payload bay.
Which gains you about 10 seconds, at best, of SSME burn time.
D.
--
Touch-twice life. Eat. Drink. Laugh.
http://derekl1963.livejournal.com/
-Resolved: To be more temperate in my postings.
Oct 5th, 2004 JDL
Hmm... enough to send a LEM and a command module
out of Earth orbit and on their way to the Moon... and the
CM back again.
-- Laugh now, eat later.
Jorge R. Frank
2010-01-14 01:31:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Androcles
Post by Derek Lyons
Post by Robert Clark
The ET tank is larger than the shuttle orbiter. My proposal would be
to fit a much smaller tank, both in dimensions and mass, inside the
payload bay.
Which gains you about 10 seconds, at best, of SSME burn time.
D.
--
Touch-twice life. Eat. Drink. Laugh.
http://derekl1963.livejournal.com/
-Resolved: To be more temperate in my postings.
Oct 5th, 2004 JDL
Hmm... enough to send a LEM and a command module
out of Earth orbit and on their way to the Moon... and the
CM back again.
Wrong.
Androcles
2010-01-14 06:35:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jorge R. Frank
Post by Androcles
Post by Derek Lyons
Post by Robert Clark
The ET tank is larger than the shuttle orbiter. My proposal would be
to fit a much smaller tank, both in dimensions and mass, inside the
payload bay.
Which gains you about 10 seconds, at best, of SSME burn time.
D.
--
Touch-twice life. Eat. Drink. Laugh.
http://derekl1963.livejournal.com/
-Resolved: To be more temperate in my postings.
Oct 5th, 2004 JDL
Hmm... enough to send a LEM and a command module
out of Earth orbit and on their way to the Moon... and the
CM back again.
Wrong.
Oh dear, another ignorant shithead that doesn't believe it possible.

*plonk*

Do not reply to this generic message, it was automatically generated;
you have been kill-filed, either for being boringly stupid, repetitive,
unfunny, ineducable, repeatedly posting politics, religion or off-topic
subjects to a sci. newsgroup, attempting cheapskate free advertising
for profit, because you are a troll, because you responded to George
Hammond the complete fruit cake, simply insane or any combination
or permutation of the aforementioned reasons; any reply will go unread.

Boringly stupid is the most common cause of kill-filing, but because
this message is generic the other reasons have been included. You are
left to decide which is most applicable to you.

There is no appeal, I have despotic power over whom I will electronically
admit into my home and you do not qualify as a reasonable person I would
wish to converse with or even poke fun at. Some weirdoes are not kill-
filed, they amuse me and I retain them for their entertainment value
as I would any chicken with two heads, either one of which enables the
dumb bird to scratch dirt, step back, look down, step forward to the
same spot and repeat the process eternally.

This should not trouble you, many of those plonked find it a blessing
that they are not required to think and can persist in their bigotry
or crackpot theories without challenge.

You have the right to free speech, I have the right not to listen. The
kill-file will be cleared annually with spring cleaning or whenever I
purchase a new computer or hard drive.
Update: the last clearance was 25/12/09. Some individuals have been
restored to the list.

I'm fully aware that you may be so stupid as to reply, but the purpose
of this message is to encourage others to kill-file fuckwits like you.

I hope you find this explanation is satisfactory but even if you don't,
damnly my frank, I don't give a dear. Have a nice day and fuck off.
Pat Flannery
2010-01-14 04:57:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Androcles
Post by Derek Lyons
Post by Robert Clark
The ET tank is larger than the shuttle orbiter. My proposal would be
to fit a much smaller tank, both in dimensions and mass, inside the
payload bay.
Which gains you about 10 seconds, at best, of SSME burn time.
D.
--
Touch-twice life. Eat. Drink. Laugh.
http://derekl1963.livejournal.com/
-Resolved: To be more temperate in my postings.
Oct 5th, 2004 JDL
Hmm... enough to send a LEM and a command module
out of Earth orbit and on their way to the Moon... and the
CM back again.
-- Laugh now, eat later.
You aren't getting what Clark is talking about here.
It isn't going to have any ET or SRBs on it; it's just the Orbiter
converted to LOX/kerosene propulsion with all of its propellants in the
cargo bay.
Effectively, all he's done is build a super-sized ground takeoff X-15.


Pat
Androcles
2010-01-14 06:41:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pat Flannery
Post by Androcles
Post by Derek Lyons
Post by Robert Clark
The ET tank is larger than the shuttle orbiter. My proposal would be
to fit a much smaller tank, both in dimensions and mass, inside the
payload bay.
Which gains you about 10 seconds, at best, of SSME burn time.
D.
--
Touch-twice life. Eat. Drink. Laugh.
http://derekl1963.livejournal.com/
-Resolved: To be more temperate in my postings.
Oct 5th, 2004 JDL
Hmm... enough to send a LEM and a command module
out of Earth orbit and on their way to the Moon... and the
CM back again.
-- Laugh now, eat later.
You aren't getting what Clark is talking about here.
It isn't going to have any ET or SRBs on it; it's just the Orbiter
converted to LOX/kerosene propulsion with all of its propellants in the
cargo bay.
Effectively, all he's done is build a super-sized ground takeoff X-15.
Pat
It's not rocket science... oh wait... yes it is. At least that stupid
shuttle
is being scrapped.
Jeff Findley
2010-01-14 18:59:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Androcles
Post by Derek Lyons
Post by Robert Clark
The ET tank is larger than the shuttle orbiter. My proposal would be
to fit a much smaller tank, both in dimensions and mass, inside the
payload bay.
Which gains you about 10 seconds, at best, of SSME burn time.
D.
--
Touch-twice life. Eat. Drink. Laugh.
http://derekl1963.livejournal.com/
-Resolved: To be more temperate in my postings.
Oct 5th, 2004 JDL
Hmm... enough to send a LEM and a command module
out of Earth orbit and on their way to the Moon... and the
CM back again.
-- Laugh now, eat later.
Absolutely wrong.

Look at the size of the third stage of the Saturn V which performed the TLI
burn for the Apollo lunar missions. Here's a hint, it's far too large to
fit in the shuttle payload bay.

If you don't believe this, do the math and post the result here. Several
readers of this group are qualified to check your math.

Jeff
--
"Take heart amid the deepening gloom
that your dog is finally getting enough cheese" - Deteriorata - National
Lampoon
Androcles
2010-01-14 22:12:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jeff Findley
Post by Androcles
Post by Derek Lyons
Post by Robert Clark
The ET tank is larger than the shuttle orbiter. My proposal would be
to fit a much smaller tank, both in dimensions and mass, inside the
payload bay.
Which gains you about 10 seconds, at best, of SSME burn time.
D.
--
Touch-twice life. Eat. Drink. Laugh.
http://derekl1963.livejournal.com/
-Resolved: To be more temperate in my postings.
Oct 5th, 2004 JDL
Hmm... enough to send a LEM and a command module
out of Earth orbit and on their way to the Moon... and the
CM back again.
-- Laugh now, eat later.
Absolutely wrong.
Look at the size of the third stage of the Saturn V which performed the
TLI burn for the Apollo lunar missions. Here's a hint, it's far too large
to fit in the shuttle payload bay.
If you don't believe this, do the math and post the result here. Several
readers of this group are qualified to check your math.
Jeff
--
"Take heart amid the deepening gloom
that your dog is finally getting enough cheese" - Deteriorata - National
Lampoon
The 25 tons payload capacity would result in just 30 seconds longer burn
time.
You could of course fit up to 79 tons of fuel into the bay by volume for a
90 second burn time if the shuttle were structurally designed for it.

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20091008092219AAb4Ce7

I suppose 90 seconds is about 10 seconds the same way a 6 foot tall man is
about 2 feet tall.
If you don't believe this, do the math and post the result here. Several
readers of this group are not qualified to check your math.

"Take heart the deepening rocket's red glare is finally bursting in air,
but you don't HAVE to swallow bullshit" -- Androcles.
Jorge R. Frank
2010-01-15 00:27:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jeff Findley
Post by Androcles
Post by Derek Lyons
Post by Robert Clark
The ET tank is larger than the shuttle orbiter. My proposal would be
to fit a much smaller tank, both in dimensions and mass, inside the
payload bay.
Which gains you about 10 seconds, at best, of SSME burn time.
D.
--
Touch-twice life. Eat. Drink. Laugh.
http://derekl1963.livejournal.com/
-Resolved: To be more temperate in my postings.
Oct 5th, 2004 JDL
Hmm... enough to send a LEM and a command module
out of Earth orbit and on their way to the Moon... and the
CM back again.
-- Laugh now, eat later.
Absolutely wrong.
Look at the size of the third stage of the Saturn V which performed the TLI
burn for the Apollo lunar missions. Here's a hint, it's far too large to
fit in the shuttle payload bay.
If you don't believe this, do the math and post the result here. Several
readers of this group are qualified to check your math.
Just for reference (and Androcles won't see this since he killfiled me):

CSM/LM mass = mf = 100000 lbm
Maximum shuttle payload mass = mp = 60000 lbm (we'll be kind and assume
the stage and engine have zero mass)
Gravitational constant = g = 32.2 fps^2
TLI delta-V = dv = 10000 fps

Rocket equation: dv = Isp*g*ln((mf + mp)/mf)
Solve for required Isp: Isp = dv/(g*ln((mf + mp)/mf) =
10000/(32.2*ln((100000+60000)/100000) = 660 s

Far higher than is possible with LOX/kero, or even LOX/LH2, even with a
massless engine and stage structure.

Or as I put it, more concisely, the first time:

Wrong.
Pat Flannery
2010-01-15 05:06:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jorge R. Frank
Far higher than is possible with LOX/kero, or even LOX/LH2, even with a
massless engine and stage structure.
How about we use mono-hydrazine, like on the Vulture?

Pat
h***@aol.com
2010-01-15 14:34:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jeff Findley
Post by Androcles
Post by Derek Lyons
Post by Robert Clark
The ET tank is larger than the shuttle orbiter. My proposal would be
to fit a much smaller tank, both in dimensions and mass, inside the
payload bay.
Which gains you about 10 seconds, at best, of SSME burn time.
D.
--
Touch-twice life. Eat. Drink. Laugh.
http://derekl1963.livejournal.com/
-Resolved: To be more temperate in my postings.
Oct 5th, 2004 JDL
Hmm... enough to send a LEM and a command module
out of Earth orbit and on their way to the Moon... and the
CM back again.
-- Laugh now, eat later.
Absolutely wrong.
Look at the size of the third stage of the Saturn V which performed the TLI
burn for the Apollo lunar missions. �Here's a hint, it's far too large to
fit in the shuttle payload bay.
If you don't believe this, do the math and post the result here. �Several
readers of this group are qualified to check your math.
Jeff
That stage was originally designed for moon direct or whatever it was
called, that stage would of landed and taken off from the moon if it
had been used.

later they went with LEM, but didnt bother making the stage smaller it
was a big overdesign for its actual use
Me
2010-01-15 15:07:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by h***@aol.com
Post by Jeff Findley
Post by Androcles
Post by Derek Lyons
Post by Robert Clark
The ET tank is larger than the shuttle orbiter. My proposal would be
to fit a much smaller tank, both in dimensions and mass, inside the
payload bay.
Which gains you about 10 seconds, at best, of SSME burn time.
D.
--
Touch-twice life. Eat. Drink. Laugh.
http://derekl1963.livejournal.com/
-Resolved: To be more temperate in my postings.
Oct 5th, 2004 JDL
Hmm... enough to send a LEM and a command module
out of Earth orbit and on their way to the Moon... and the
CM back again.
-- Laugh now, eat later.
Absolutely wrong.
Look at the size of the third stage of the Saturn V which performed the TLI
burn for the Apollo lunar missions. Here's a hint, it's far too large to
fit in the shuttle payload bay.
If you don't believe this, do the math and post the result here. Several
readers of this group are qualified to check your math.
Jeff
That stage was originally designed for moon direct or whatever it was
called, that stage would of landed and taken off from the moon if it
had been used.
later they went with LEM, but didnt bother making the stage smaller it
was a big overdesign for its actual use
Haller, you don't know what you are talking about. It was not
overdesigned nor was it to be used for landing or taking off the
moon. For the "Direct" mission, the lander stage was on the Apollo
spacecraft and not the Saturn and was not the S-IVB. The S-IVB was
sized perfectly for the role of the Saturn V 3rd stage
bob haller safety advocate
2010-01-15 17:27:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by h***@aol.com
Post by Jeff Findley
Post by Androcles
Post by Derek Lyons
Post by Robert Clark
The ET tank is larger than the shuttle orbiter. My proposal would be
to fit a much smaller tank, both in dimensions and mass, inside the
payload bay.
Which gains you about 10 seconds, at best, of SSME burn time.
D.
--
Touch-twice life. Eat. Drink. Laugh.
http://derekl1963.livejournal.com/
-Resolved: To be more temperate in my postings.
Oct 5th, 2004 JDL
Hmm... enough to send a LEM and a command module
out of Earth orbit and on their way to the Moon... and the
CM back again.
-- Laugh now, eat later.
Absolutely wrong.
Look at the size of the third stage of the Saturn V which performed the TLI
burn for the Apollo lunar missions. Here's a hint, it's far too large to
fit in the shuttle payload bay.
If you don't believe this, do the math and post the result here. Several
readers of this group are qualified to check your math.
Jeff
That stage was originally designed for moon direct or whatever it was
called, that stage would of landed and taken off from the moon if it
had been used.
later they went with LEM, but didnt bother making the stage smaller it
was a big overdesign for its actual use
Haller, you don't know what you are talking about. �It was not
overdesigned nor was it to be used for landing or taking off the
moon. �For the "Direct" mission, the lander stage was on the Apollo
spacecraft and not the Saturn and was not the S-IVB. �The S-IVB was
sized perfectly for the role of the Saturn V 3rd stage- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
the original apollo plan was landing the service module on the moon
with landing legs deploying.

then they started to wonder how the crew would get out of the CM and
to the surface?? even in low gravity thats a long way down.

then the LEM approach was used.
Me
2010-01-15 17:56:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by bob haller safety advocate
Post by h***@aol.com
Post by Jeff Findley
Post by Androcles
Post by Derek Lyons
Post by Robert Clark
The ET tank is larger than the shuttle orbiter. My proposal would be
to fit a much smaller tank, both in dimensions and mass, inside the
payload bay.
Which gains you about 10 seconds, at best, of SSME burn time.
D.
--
Touch-twice life. Eat. Drink. Laugh.
http://derekl1963.livejournal.com/
-Resolved: To be more temperate in my postings.
Oct 5th, 2004 JDL
Hmm... enough to send a LEM and a command module
out of Earth orbit and on their way to the Moon... and the
CM back again.
-- Laugh now, eat later.
Absolutely wrong.
Look at the size of the third stage of the Saturn V which performed the TLI
burn for the Apollo lunar missions. Here's a hint, it's far too large to
fit in the shuttle payload bay.
If you don't believe this, do the math and post the result here. Several
readers of this group are qualified to check your math.
Jeff
That stage was originally designed for moon direct or whatever it was
called, that stage would of landed and taken off from the moon if it
had been used.
later they went with LEM, but didnt bother making the stage smaller it
was a big overdesign for its actual use
Haller, you don't know what you are talking about. It was not
overdesigned nor was it to be used for landing or taking off the
moon. For the "Direct" mission, the lander stage was on the Apollo
spacecraft and not the Saturn and was not the S-IVB. The S-IVB was
sized perfectly for the role of the Saturn V 3rd stage- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
the original apollo plan was landing the service module on the moon
with landing legs deploying.
That was not the third stage of the saturn V
bob haller safety advocate
2010-01-15 22:05:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by bob haller safety advocate
Post by h***@aol.com
Post by Jeff Findley
Post by Androcles
Post by Derek Lyons
Post by Robert Clark
The ET tank is larger than the shuttle orbiter. My proposal would be
to fit a much smaller tank, both in dimensions and mass, inside the
payload bay.
Which gains you about 10 seconds, at best, of SSME burn time.
D.
--
Touch-twice life. Eat. Drink. Laugh.
http://derekl1963.livejournal.com/
-Resolved: To be more temperate in my postings.
Oct 5th, 2004 JDL
Hmm... enough to send a LEM and a command module
out of Earth orbit and on their way to the Moon... and the
CM back again.
-- Laugh now, eat later.
Absolutely wrong.
Look at the size of the third stage of the Saturn V which performed the TLI
burn for the Apollo lunar missions. Here's a hint, it's far too large to
fit in the shuttle payload bay.
If you don't believe this, do the math and post the result here. Several
readers of this group are qualified to check your math.
Jeff
That stage was originally designed for moon direct or whatever it was
called, that stage would of landed and taken off from the moon if it
had been used.
later they went with LEM, but didnt bother making the stage smaller it
was a big overdesign for its actual use
Haller, you don't know what you are talking about. It was not
overdesigned nor was it to be used for landing or taking off the
moon. For the "Direct" mission, the lander stage was on the Apollo
spacecraft and not the Saturn and was not the S-IVB. The S-IVB was
sized perfectly for the role of the Saturn V 3rd stage- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
the original apollo plan was landing the service module on the moon
with landing legs deploying.
That was not the third stage of the saturn V- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
my bad then it was a long time ago.

by now i thought we would of been to mars and beyond:(
David Spain
2010-01-13 20:33:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Derek Lyons
Post by Robert Clark
The ET tank is larger than the shuttle orbiter. My proposal would be
to fit a much smaller tank, both in dimensions and mass, inside the
payload bay.
Which gains you about 10 seconds, at best, of SSME burn time.
D.
Derek,

Bob Clark wants to replace the SSME's with Russian NK-33's burning LOX/Kerosene.
The reconfigured shuttle is not capable of reaching orbit on its own.
The question of re-usability of the NK-33 is not addressed. If not reusable
you have to factor in the cost to replace or rebuild for each flight.

There would be a second stage, probably detachable from below for going
into orbit. Presumably a 1-way trip, unless you're developing a new reusable
vehicle? Which begs the question why not focus on the reusable vehicle anyway
and ditch the shuttle? And fueled by what to present no hazard to the shuttle
TPS? This question is left as an exercise for the reader.

Bob, there are still two major cost factors, the cost of ground ops is still
very high for such a large vehicle with a finicky TPS and you still have the
unrecoverable cost of return ferry flights to the launch point since you're
advocating vertical launches.

So subtract the cost of SRB's, ET and SSME maintenance. Then add back in the
new costs of NK-33 refurb/replacement, and the return ferry flights. Assuming
all other costs remain the same and ignoring the one-off modification costs,
including the development of ? for orbital ops. I don't see this as a paying
proposition.

Dave
Pat Flannery
2010-01-14 05:01:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Spain
I don't see this as a
paying
proposition.
This whole concept is completely irrational from end-to-end.

Pat
Robert Clark
2010-01-14 12:33:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Spain
...
Bob Clark wants to replace the SSME's with Russian NK-33's burning LOX/Kerosene.
The reconfigured shuttle is not capable of reaching orbit on its own.
The question of re-usability of the NK-33 is not addressed. If not reusable
you have to factor in the cost to replace or rebuild for each flight.
There would be a second stage, probably detachable from below for going
into orbit. Presumably a 1-way trip, unless you're developing a new reusable
vehicle? Which begs the question why not focus on the reusable vehicle anyway
and ditch the shuttle? And fueled by what to present no hazard to the shuttle
TPS? This question is left as an exercise for the reader.
Bob, there are still two major cost factors, the cost of ground ops is still
very high for such a large vehicle with a finicky TPS and you still have the
unrecoverable cost of return ferry flights to the launch point since you're
advocating vertical launches.
So subtract the cost of SRB's, ET and SSME maintenance. Then add back in the
new costs of NK-33 refurb/replacement, and the return ferry flights. Assuming
all other costs remain the same and ignoring the one-off modification costs,
including the development of ? for orbital ops. I don't see this as a paying
proposition.
Dave
I'll give you a hint about the economic value of reconfiguring the
shuttle or Buran as a first stage:

Aug. 10, 2007
NASA Awards First Stage Contract for Ares Rockets.
"WASHINGTON - NASA has signed a $1.8 billion contract with Alliant
Techsystems, known as ATK, located near Brigham City, Utah, for the
design, development, testing, and evaluation of the first stage of the
Ares I and Ares V launch vehicles."
http://www.nasa.gov/home/hqnews/2007/aug/HQ_C07036_Ares_first_stage.html

Still need to do the calculations.

Bob Clark
Me
2010-01-14 15:38:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Spain
...
Bob Clark wants to replace the SSME's with Russian NK-33's burning LOX/Kerosene.
The reconfigured shuttle is not capable of reaching orbit on its own.
The question of re-usability of the NK-33 is not addressed. If not reusable
you have to factor in the cost to replace or rebuild for each flight.
There would be a second stage, probably detachable from below for going
into orbit. Presumably a 1-way trip, unless you're developing a new reusable
vehicle? Which begs the question why not focus on the reusable vehicle anyway
and ditch the shuttle? And fueled by what to present no hazard to the shuttle
TPS? This question is left as an exercise for the reader.
Bob, there are still two major cost factors, the cost of ground ops is still
very high for such a large vehicle with a finicky TPS and you still have the
unrecoverable cost of return ferry flights to the launch point since you're
advocating vertical launches.
So subtract the cost of SRB's, ET and SSME maintenance. Then add back in the
new costs of NK-33 refurb/replacement, and the return ferry flights. Assuming
all other costs remain the same and ignoring the one-off modification costs,
including the development of ? for orbital ops. I don't see this as a paying
proposition.
Dave
 I'll give you a hint about the economic value of reconfiguring the
Aug. 10, 2007
NASA Awards First Stage Contract for Ares Rockets.
"WASHINGTON - NASA has signed a $1.8 billion contract with Alliant
Techsystems, known as ATK, located near Brigham City, Utah, for the
design, development, testing, and evaluation of the first stage of the
Ares I and Ares V launch vehicles."http://www.nasa.gov/home/hqnews/2007/aug/HQ_C07036_Ares_first_stage.html
No, this would be the similar to the cost of reconfiguring the
shuttle,

Also, the ATK contract is for the develop of the booster and not the
unit cost
Derek Lyons
2010-01-14 19:37:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Spain
Post by Derek Lyons
Post by Robert Clark
The ET tank is larger than the shuttle orbiter. My proposal would be
to fit a much smaller tank, both in dimensions and mass, inside the
payload bay.
Which gains you about 10 seconds, at best, of SSME burn time.
D.
Derek,
Bob Clark wants to replace the SSME's with Russian NK-33's burning LOX/Kerosene.
To which the answer is the same: A fuel tank in the cargo bay gains
you 10 seconds, at best, of NK-33 burn time.

D.
--
Touch-twice life. Eat. Drink. Laugh.

http://derekl1963.livejournal.com/

-Resolved: To be more temperate in my postings.
Oct 5th, 2004 JDL
Robert Clark
2010-01-14 21:46:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Spain
Post by Derek Lyons
Post by Robert Clark
The ET tank is larger than the shuttle orbiter. My proposal would be
to fit a much smaller tank, both in dimensions and mass, inside the
payload bay.
Which gains you about 10 seconds, at best, of SSME burn time.
D.
Derek,
Bob Clark wants to replace the SSME's with Russian NK-33's burning LOX/Kerosene.
To which the answer is the same:  A fuel tank in the cargo bay gains
you 10 seconds, at best, of NK-33 burn time.
D.
--
Perhaps you are assuming you use just the maximum of 25,000 kg
shuttle payload mass allowed under the current shuttle system.
I'm taking the full payload bay volume of about 300 cubic meters and
filling it with propellant. This would give about 300,000 kg of lox/
kerosene, or about 100,000 kg lox/LH2 if you wanted to use the same
idea but keep the SSME's.
It will require strengthening of the orbiter midfuselage, but I'm
arguing the extra structural mass would be less than the structural
mass already needed on the shuttle to hold the 500,000 kg or so of
propellant remaining in the ET after SRB sep.


Bob Clark
Robert Clark
2010-01-14 22:22:51 UTC
Permalink
...
 Perhaps you are assuming you use just the maximum of 25,000 kg
shuttle payload mass allowed under the current shuttle system.
 I'm taking the full payload bay volume of about 300 cubic meters and
filling it with propellant. This would give about 300,000 kg of lox/
kerosene, or about 100,000 kg lox/LH2 if you wanted to use the same
idea but keep the SSME's.
 It will require strengthening of the orbiter midfuselage, but I'm
arguing the extra structural mass would be less than the structural
mass already needed on the shuttle to hold the 500,000 kg or so of
propellant remaining in the ET after SRB sep.
Remember a large mass of propellant carried on the *inside* is the
usual way rockets operate. Think of it this way: which would require
greater mass and complexity of structural strengthening members,

the S-IC Saturn V first stage carrying the 5,000,000 lbs. of
propellant inside, as it actually did, or a huge outside tank hanging
off attachments points containing, say, 8,000,000 lbs, with just a big
empty space in the rocket between the engines and the second stage?

Cutaway diagram of the S-IC
Loading Image...


Bob Clark
Me
2010-01-15 03:22:15 UTC
Permalink
 Remember a large mass of propellant carried on the *inside* is the
usual way rockets operate. Think of it this way: which would require
greater mass and complexity of structural strengthening members,
the S-IC Saturn V first stage carrying the 5,000,000 lbs. of
propellant inside, as it actually did, or a huge outside tank hanging
off attachments points containing, say, 8,000,000 lbs, with just a big
empty space in the rocket between the engines and the second stage?
Wrong, Not a valid comparison. Just shows that Clark doesn't know
squat about what he is saying.
The tank inside the orbit is not a structure component of the vehicle
like the tank of a Saturn stage.
The tank on the inside of the orbiter would have suspended within the
orbiter just like the payloads are. Or to put in in words that Clark
can understand, the tank would have to hang in the inside of payload
bay. This make the tank heavier since it will need to have attach
points like the ET and the payload bay would have beefed up.

But as it has been stated here, on BAUT forum and SDC that this is not
feasible nor is the rest of the idea not workable.

So Clark so how many times and by how many people do you have be told
that you ideas won't work? You must be an f'ing idiot to think you
are right and everyone else is wrong. That is a sign of mental
illness. How did you did get a degree and who did you pay off to let
you become a math instructor? The school that employs you should have
its accredition taken away. You are completely clueless when it
becomes to engineering. Just stick to math theory since you have
shown that you can't do math applications.
Robert Clark
2010-01-15 09:57:26 UTC
Permalink
...
So Clark so how many times  and by how many people do you have be told
that you ideas won't work?  You must be an f'ing idiot to think you
are right and everyone else is wrong.  That is a sign of mental
illness.  How did you did get a degree and who did you pay off to let
you become a math instructor?  The school that employs you should have
its accredition taken away.  You are completely clueless when it
becomes to engineering.  Just stick to math theory since you have
shown that you can't do math applications.
It is quite common when there is great opposition to a new idea, that
the more strongly the new idea becomes supported the more hysterical
becomes the opposition.
Then the fact that is obviously harder and requires more
strengthening structural mass to have a *larger* tank hanging on the
*outside* of a rocket then to have a *smaller* tank on the *inside*
would cause a severe hysterical reaction.
The opposite position would propose, that rocket designers,
architects, civil engineers, had it wrong all these decades and
centuries.
Instead of having all these rockets with propellant tanks and engines
in a line, lets put a bigger tank on the outside and just have this
big empty space between the engines and upper stages. This would
really take less structural mass! Yes! We KNOW that because the
shuttle did it that way. Yep, the Saturn V could have launched much
bigger payloads to the Moon by doing it that way. The Ares I and Ares
V weight proplems would be solved just by just having larger tanks on
the outside and just big empty spaces between the engines and upper
stages. And moreover you actually save on structural mass that way!
Undoubtedly the same holds for architects and civil engineers.
Instead of having columns straight up and down supporting the weight
vertically, lets just have a larger chunk shoved over to the side and
just leave a big empty space between the lower column and the upper
column. Then you could support a larger weight using thinner columns
that way!

Or maybe the shuttle designers were forced to do it that way because
of the requirements of having such a large mass of propellant that
couldn't fit internally to the desired orbiter size, knowing that it
would require more structural mass to support it.


Bob Clark
Me
2010-01-15 12:12:19 UTC
Permalink
 It is quite common when there is great opposition to a new idea, that
the more strongly the new idea becomes supported the more hysterical
becomes the opposition.
 Then the fact that is obviously harder and requires more
strengthening structural mass to have a *larger* tank hanging on the
*outside* of a rocket then to have a *smaller* tank on the *inside*
would cause a severe hysterical reaction.
You still don't understand it. What you say is true for two designs
started from the ground up. It is not true for the existing
orbiter. The what you don't get that the what the shuttle carried on
the outside is not applicable to the inside. The whole vehicle can
not handle the mods. There are no mods viable to take extra weight of
the propellant. It is not just in the payload bay. Any majors mods
to the payload bay are going to necessitate mods to the other
structural components of the orbiter and the systems within them.
This will be prohibited in mass and in cost. So there is no advantage
to your idea.
Me
2010-01-15 12:18:05 UTC
Permalink
 Or maybe the shuttle designers were forced to do it that way because
of the requirements of having such a large mass of propellant that
couldn't fit internally to the desired orbiter size, knowing that it
would require more structural mass to support it.
Duh, that is what we have been saying all along . You have been too
thickheaded to listen. And what was worse is your idea to modified an
existing orbiter. If the design was not feasible with a clean slate
why would modifying an existing would work then?
Me
2010-01-15 12:24:12 UTC
Permalink
 Instead of having all these rockets with propellant tanks and engines
in a line, lets put a bigger tank on the outside and just have this
big empty space between the engines and upper stages.
There is no " big empty space" between the engines and upper stages.
The shuttle payloads were always carried as close to the aft bulkhead
of payload bay which is next to the main propulsion plumbing and
engines
Derek Lyons
2010-01-18 21:20:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Clark
Then the fact that is obviously harder and requires more
strengthening structural mass to have a *larger* tank hanging on the
*outside* of a rocket then to have a *smaller* tank on the *inside*
would cause a severe hysterical reaction.
That's just the thing - it's *not* obvious.

D.
--
Touch-twice life. Eat. Drink. Laugh.

http://derekl1963.livejournal.com/

-Resolved: To be more temperate in my postings.
Oct 5th, 2004 JDL
Derek Lyons
2010-01-15 06:13:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Clark
Remember a large mass of propellant carried on the *inside* is the
usual way rockets operate. Think of it this way: which would require
greater mass and complexity of structural strengthening members,
the S-IC Saturn V first stage carrying the 5,000,000 lbs. of
propellant inside, as it actually did, or a huge outside tank hanging
off attachments points containing, say, 8,000,000 lbs, with just a big
empty space in the rocket between the engines and the second stage?
Probably the S-IC style would require the greater 'extra' mass, as the
external tank is attached near/to the wing roots and landing gear
which are already very strong for other reasons. You also forget that
only a small portion of the structure bears that 8,000,000 lb load,
and that a much greater proportion of the structure will feel the
5,000,000 lb load.

D.
--
Touch-twice life. Eat. Drink. Laugh.

http://derekl1963.livejournal.com/

-Resolved: To be more temperate in my postings.
Oct 5th, 2004 JDL
Robert Clark
2010-01-15 10:14:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Derek Lyons
Post by Robert Clark
Remember a large mass of propellant carried on the *inside* is the
usual way rockets operate. Think of it this way: which would require
greater mass and complexity of structural strengthening members,
the S-IC Saturn V first stage carrying the 5,000,000 lbs. of
propellant inside, as it actually did, or a huge outside tank hanging
off attachments points containing, say, 8,000,000 lbs, with just a big
empty space in the rocket between the engines and the second stage?
Probably the S-IC style would require the greater 'extra' mass, as the
external tank is attached near/to the wing roots and landing gear
which are already very strong for other reasons.  You also forget that
only a small portion of the structure bears that 8,000,000 lb load,
and that a much greater proportion of the structure will feel the
5,000,000 lb load.
D.
--
If it weren't for the opposition to the current proposal nobody would
be saying that shoving a greater mass off to the side would require
lower structural strengthening support. If that were the case then
after the shuttle was designed all the rockets would be done that way,
afterall you could carry more propellant and at less strenthening
structural mass.
And after the shuttle made this great discovery all architectural
columns from now on would be designed with a big chunk in the middle
shoved over to the side since you could support more weight that way
and use thinner columns to support it.


Bob Clark
Me
2010-01-15 12:20:45 UTC
Permalink
 If it weren't for the opposition to the current proposal nobody would
be saying that shoving a greater mass off to the side would require
lower structural strengthening support. If that were the case then
after the shuttle was designed all the rockets would be done that way,
afterall you could carry more propellant and at less strenthening
structural mass.
 And after the shuttle made this great discovery all architectural
Wrong, there were proposals to increase the size of the ET and its
propellant load. Some didn't require any mods to the orbiter.
Derek Lyons
2010-01-18 21:19:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Clark
Post by Derek Lyons
Post by Robert Clark
Remember a large mass of propellant carried on the *inside* is the
usual way rockets operate. Think of it this way: which would require
greater mass and complexity of structural strengthening members,
the S-IC Saturn V first stage carrying the 5,000,000 lbs. of
propellant inside, as it actually did, or a huge outside tank hanging
off attachments points containing, say, 8,000,000 lbs, with just a big
empty space in the rocket between the engines and the second stage?
Probably the S-IC style would require the greater 'extra' mass, as the
external tank is attached near/to the wing roots and landing gear
which are already very strong for other reasons.  You also forget that
only a small portion of the structure bears that 8,000,000 lb load,
and that a much greater proportion of the structure will feel the
5,000,000 lb load.
If it weren't for the opposition to the current proposal nobody would
be saying that shoving a greater mass off to the side would require
lower structural strengthening support.
Opposition or no, facts are facts. But facts are something you all
too often have no acquaintance with.
Post by Robert Clark
If that were the case then after the shuttle was designed all the rockets
would be done that way, afterall you could carry more propellant and at
less strenthening structural mass.
If it weren't for the other disadvantages that come with this design,
and the fact that it only makes sense for a (extremely) limited number
of configurations... sure.

In reality, you're just blowing smoke.
Post by Robert Clark
And after the shuttle made this great discovery all architectural
columns from now on would be designed with a big chunk in the middle
shoved over to the side since you could support more weight that way
and use thinner columns to support it.
If archectural columns and the Shuttle had anything in common, sure.

In reality, you're just exposing your vast ignorance.

D.
--
Touch-twice life. Eat. Drink. Laugh.

http://derekl1963.livejournal.com/

-Resolved: To be more temperate in my postings.
Oct 5th, 2004 JDL
Me
2010-01-15 03:31:14 UTC
Permalink
 It will require strengthening of the orbiter midfuselage, but I'm
arguing the extra structural mass would be less than the structural
mass already needed on the shuttle to hold the 500,000 kg or so of
propellant remaining in the ET after SRB sep.
You have no basis for your argument. The structure for holding the ET
and SSME's is limited to the aft fuselage and it is account for in the
existing orbit. The mods to orbiter midfuselage would be over larger
volume and would affect the midfuselage attachment to the foward and
aft fuselage and the wings. Also the already marginal landing gear
and attachments would have be beefed up. Since the orbiter is dry
mass is heavier or even in an abort scenario with some propellant left
onboard the wings would need to be bigger. And then the hydraulics
would need to be beefed up for the bigger wing and now the orbiter is
even still heavier and now because ............ and so on and so on.
But Clark still doesn't get it because he is not right in the head.
Derek Lyons
2010-01-15 06:05:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Clark
Perhaps you are assuming you use just the maximum of 25,000 kg
shuttle payload mass allowed under the current shuttle system.
I'm taking the full payload bay volume of about 300 cubic meters and
filling it with propellant.
You can't do that - as the payload bay isn't circular, it's not even
close. You're also limited by the equipment located below the bay
'floor'.
Post by Robert Clark
This would give about 300,000 kg of lox/ kerosene, or about 100,000 kg
lox/LH2 if you wanted to use the same idea but keep the SSME's.
Either figure greatly exceeds the cargo capacity of the orbiter, so it
matters little which one you pick.
Post by Robert Clark
It will require strengthening of the orbiter midfuselage, but I'm
arguing the extra structural mass would be less than the structural
mass already needed on the shuttle to hold the 500,000 kg or so of
propellant remaining in the ET after SRB sep.
If by 'strengthening' you mean 'replace with something completely
different, no I mean radically fucking different like you would not
believe', then sure.

D.
--
Touch-twice life. Eat. Drink. Laugh.

http://derekl1963.livejournal.com/

-Resolved: To be more temperate in my postings.
Oct 5th, 2004 JDL
Robert Clark
2010-01-15 10:03:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Derek Lyons
Post by Robert Clark
This would give about 300,000 kg of lox/ kerosene, or about 100,000 kg
lox/LH2 if you wanted to use the same idea but keep the SSME's.
Either figure greatly exceeds the cargo capacity of the orbiter, so it
matters little which one you pick.
The payload capacity of the current shuttle system is determined by
the limitations of the propellant load it could carry and the rocket
equation.
For usual rockets with the propellant tanks inline with the engines
and upper stages there is relatively little strengthening member mass
required because much of the compressive and bending loads are
supported by the pressurized tank.


Bob Clark
John Doe
2010-01-15 10:39:39 UTC
Permalink
Since we are looking at hypothetical scenarios that may or may not make
sense...

If they made the ET longer (and thus bigger O2 and H2 tanks).

How much more fuel could they add before the combined thrust of SSME and
SRBs would no longer be enough to get the shuttle off the ground ?

Or is the thrust of current engines already near the limit of how much
mass they can lift out of the pad ?


WOuld having slower acceleration at first (due to higher mass of stack)
be a big problem in terms of maintaining attitude during liftoff ?

Would the slower initial speeds have any significant advantages in terms
of reduced friction at lower altitudes ? Or would this be trivial ?

In terms of orbit insertion, if you were able to burn 10 minutes
instead of 8 to reach higher altitude at MECO, does this mean that they
would also have to have significantly more fuel for the OMS engines to
circularize the orbit ? or is orbit circularisation from a higher orbit
cheaper in terms of fuel use ?
Alain Fournier
2010-01-15 12:22:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Doe
Since we are looking at hypothetical scenarios that may or may not make
sense...
If they made the ET longer (and thus bigger O2 and H2 tanks).
How much more fuel could they add before the combined thrust of SSME and
SRBs would no longer be enough to get the shuttle off the ground ?
Or is the thrust of current engines already near the limit of how much
mass they can lift out of the pad ?
I think there is some spare capacity in engine thrust. I would be more
concerned about forces at attachment points. My major concern would
be torque when the solid rocket boosters complete their burn. The
remaining weight in the tank might be too much.
Post by John Doe
WOuld having slower acceleration at first (due to higher mass of stack)
be a big problem in terms of maintaining attitude during liftoff ?
Would the slower initial speeds have any significant advantages in terms
of reduced friction at lower altitudes ? Or would this be trivial ?
In terms of orbit insertion, if you were able to burn 10 minutes
instead of 8 to reach higher altitude at MECO, does this mean that they
would also have to have significantly more fuel for the OMS engines to
circularize the orbit ? or is orbit circularisation from a higher orbit
cheaper in terms of fuel use ?
It wouldn't make much a big difference. Circularisation gets cheaper as you
go higher but more expensive as you get more elliptical.

But if you go much higher than the maximum altitude of the Shuttle, you get
into problems with Van Allen belts.


Alain Fournier
Pat Flannery
2010-01-15 15:31:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Doe
Since we are looking at hypothetical scenarios that may or may not make
sense...
If they made the ET longer (and thus bigger O2 and H2 tanks).
How much more fuel could they add before the combined thrust of SSME and
SRBs would no longer be enough to get the shuttle off the ground ?
It's not that simple.
Simply adding more propellants to the point where it can just barely
lift off doesn't guarantee it will have better performance.
It seems counter-intuitive, but the weight of the tankage to carry the
extra propellants will work against its performance as it gets to higher
altitude with most of its fuel gone.
To add extra tankage in a way that will let it carry more to orbit, you
either have to decrease the weight of the structure of the spacecraft
itself, or up the efficiency of the engines.
A good case in point that illustrates this is the postwar work by the
Soviets to improve the German V-2 missile into a longer range weapon.
Stalin also suggested just adding more fuel, but it was a combination of
decreasing weight by eliminating the separate internal propellant tank
for the fuel and increasing the energy of the fuel - thereby upping the
thrust the engine could generate, that allowed the missile to be
lengthened to carry more propellant and get a far better range:
http://www.astronautix.com/lvs/r1.htm
http://www.astronautix.com/lvs/r2.htm
http://data-freeway.com/plesetsk/br2_1.htm

Pat
Derek Lyons
2010-01-18 21:23:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Clark
Post by Derek Lyons
Post by Robert Clark
This would give about 300,000 kg of lox/ kerosene, or about 100,000 kg
lox/LH2 if you wanted to use the same idea but keep the SSME's.
Either figure greatly exceeds the cargo capacity of the orbiter, so it
matters little which one you pick.
The payload capacity of the current shuttle system is determined by
the limitations of the propellant load it could carry and the rocket
equation.
The payload capacity of *all* rockets are determined by the
limitations of the propellant tank load it can carry and by the rocket
equation.
Post by Robert Clark
For usual rockets with the propellant tanks inline with the engines
and upper stages there is relatively little strengthening member mass
required because much of the compressive and bending loads are
supported by the pressurized tank.
Since a reuseable Shuttle with an internal tank is radically different
from a 'usual rocket', so the fuck what?

D.
--
Touch-twice life. Eat. Drink. Laugh.

http://derekl1963.livejournal.com/

-Resolved: To be more temperate in my postings.
Oct 5th, 2004 JDL
Pat Flannery
2010-01-15 03:22:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Derek Lyons
To which the answer is the same: A fuel tank in the cargo bay gains
you 10 seconds, at best, of NK-33 burn time.
Extra boosters over the wings, and conversion into a biplane!:
Loading Image...

Pat
Pat Flannery
2010-01-14 04:48:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Derek Lyons
Post by Robert Clark
The ET tank is larger than the shuttle orbiter. My proposal would be
to fit a much smaller tank, both in dimensions and mass, inside the
payload bay.
Which gains you about 10 seconds, at best, of SSME burn time.
Remember that it's now supposed to be burning LOX/kerosene rather than
LOX/LH2, so whatever is hanging on the back isn't a SSME.
I've got models to the same scale of a Saturn IB and Shuttle sitting in
front of me as I write this, and the cargo bay of the Shuttle looks like
it could hold around 2/3rds the propellant volume of the Saturn IB first
stage once you put the propellant tanks and their bulkheads in.
So that's around 270,000 kg of propellant.
I seriously doubt the cargo bay can support that kind of weight - either
vertically or horizontally - as its normal payload weight limit is
24,400 kg....so you are putting around 11 times as much weight in it as
it was designed to carry.

Pat
Robert Clark
2010-01-16 20:39:07 UTC
Permalink
 This article describes the plan to sell the orbiters minus engines
For sale: Used space shuttles. Asking price: $42 million apiece
By John Matson
Dec 18, 2008 04:00 PM in Spacehttp://www.scientificamerican.com/blog/post.cfm?id=for-sale-used-spac...
 It is currently intended only to be sold to educational institutions,
or governmental agencies.
 The Air Force is looking for designs for reusable first stage
boosters for two-stage-to-orbit (TSTO) systems. Then it might be able
to be used for this purpose. Most likely you would use kerosene fuel
for this since dense fuels are more suitable for first stages.
 The payload bay would be converted to a fuel tank, and the second
stage of the TSTO would be carried on top or below the orbiter. High
performance kerosene engines such as the Russian NK-33, with a near
legendary thrust/weight ratio of 136.66 to 1 at a weight of 1,222 kg,
NK-33.http://www.astronautix.com/engines/nk33.htm
Atlantis.http://www.astronautix.com/craft/atlantis.htm
 Its payload bay is around 300 cubic meters that could be used for
Lox/Kerosene.http://www.astronautix.com/props/loxosene.htm
and the oxidizer to fuel ratio of the NK-33 of 2.8 to 1 we can
calculate the propellant load that can be carried as about 300,000 kg.
You would need at least 3 of the NK-33's to lift this fuel load,
orbiter and second stage.
 The tank weight of kerosene/lox is typically around 1/100th of the
propellant weight so around, 3,000 kg. Then the empty weight of the
reconfigured orbiter would be 68,600kg + 3*1,222kg + 3,000kg =
75,266kg. And the fully fueled weight of this stage would be
375,266kg.
 For this first stage alone without a second stage, this would be a
mass ratio of about 5. Using an average Isp of the NK-33 of 315 you
could get a delta-V of 315*9.8*ln(5) = 4,970 m/s, about Mach 15.
 A total delta-V this high raises the possibility it could be used for
suborbital space tourism or point-to-point hypersonic transport, if
sale to commercial organizations were to be allowed.
Robert Zubrin in his book "Entering Space: Creating a Spacefaring
Civilization" makes some interesting observations about the space
shuttle:

"The shuttle is a fiscal disaster not because it is reusable, but
because both its technical and programmatic bases are incorrect. The
shuttle is a partially reusable launch vehicle: Its lower stages are
expendable or semi-salvageable while the upper stage (the orbiter ) is
reusable. As aesthetically pleasing as this configuration may appear
to some, from an engineering point of view this is precisely the
opposite of the correct way to design a partially reusable launch
system. Instead, the lower stages should be reusable and the upper
stage expendable. Why? Becasue the lower stages of a multi-staged
booster are far more massive than the upper stage: so if only one or
the other is to be reusable, you save much more money by reusing the
lower stage. Furthermore, it is much easier to make the lower stage
reusable, since it does not fly as high or as fast, and thus takes
much less of a beating during reentry. Finally the negative payload
impact of adding those systems required for reusability is much less
if they are put on the lower stage than the upper. In a typical two-
stage to orbit system for example every kilogram of extra dry mass
added to the lower stage reduces the payload delivered to orbit by
about 0.1 kilograms, whereas a kilogram of extra dry mass on the upper
stage causes a full kilogram of payload loss. The Shuttle is actually
a 100-tonne to orbit booster, but because the upper stage is a
reusable orbiter vehicle with a dry mass of 80 tonnes, only 20 tonnes
of payload is actually delivered to orbit. From the amount of smake,
fire, and thrust the Shuttle produces on the launch pad, it should
deliver five times the payload to orbit of a Titan IV, but because it
must launch the orbiter to space as well as the payload, its net
delivery capability only equals that of the Titan. There is no need
for 60-odd tonnes of wings, landing gear and thermal protection
systems in Earth orbit, but the shuttle drags them up there (at a cost
of $10 million per tonne) anyway each time it flies. In short the
Space Shuttle is so inefficient because *it is built upside down*.
{emphasis in the original.}
"Entering Space", p. 29.

This provides support for the view of the Air Force that reusable
first stage boosters can cut the costs to space by 50%:

Spacelift Development Plan.
http://www.acq.osd.mil/nsso/conference/briefs/HampstenSDP%20Public%20Release.ppt

The shuttle is quite large for an upper stage. But it is the right
size for a first stage. It's my intention to turn the Space Shuttle
System right-side up by making the orbiter into a reusable first
stage.


Bob Clark
Robert Clark
2010-01-19 22:56:06 UTC
Permalink
...
The Air Force is looking for designs for reusable first stage boosters for two-stage-to-orbit >(TSTO) systems. Then it might be able to be used for this purpose. Most likely you would use >kerosene fuel for this since dense fuels are more suitable for first stages.
NK-33.
http://www.astronautix.com/engines/nk33.htm
Atlantis.
http://www.astronautix.com/craft/atlantis.htm
Lox/Kerosene.
http://www.astronautix.com/props/loxosene.htm
and the oxidizer to fuel ratio of the NK-33 of 2.8 to 1 we can calculate the propellant load that >can be carried as about 300,000 kg. You would need at least 3 of the NK-33's to lift this fuel >load, orbiter and second stage.
The tank weight of kerosene/lox is typically around 1/100th of the propellant weight so around, >3,000 kg. Then the empty weight of the reconfigured orbiter would be 68,600kg + 3*1,222kg + >3,000kg = 75,266kg. And the fully fueled weight of this stage would be 375,266kg.
I mentioned before converting the space shuttle orbiter into a first
stage use would actually be quite important. I discuss this below.

I.)Weight savings by removing unneeded components.
II.)Replacement of the Ares I first stage by the reconfigured shuttle.
III.)Costs saving by private commercial financing rather than "cost-
plus" contracts.

I.) I wanted to get some shuttle component weights to estimate the
weight savings we could make by removing systems that would not be
needed for a suborbital or first stage use. The Astronautix page on
the Shuttle Atlantis gives its "Heat Shield Mass" as 12,100 kg (26,600
lb).
However, Astronautix is sometimes inaccurate. So I found this report
after a web search:

Thermal Protection System Sizing and Selection for RLVs Using the
Sentry Code.
http://www.sei.aero/eng/papers/uploads/archive/AIAA-2006-4605.pdf

It gives on page p. 11 a weight of 17,910 lbs for the thermal
protection tiles and panels but notes other hardware for the TPS
amounts to 4,600 lbs. for a total of 22,510 lbs., 10,232 kg. I'll use
this value for the shuttle TPS.
I've been informed by someone who did a study for the Air Force's
"Reusable Booster System" program that for first stage use at low
hypersonic speeds an aluminum frame would require minimal thermal
protection. See the slides from pages 5 and 7 of this report on the
Air Force's RBS program:

Spacelift Development Plan.
http://www.acq.osd.mil/nsso/conference/briefs/HampstenSDP%20Public%20Release.ppt

So I'll subtract off the 10,232 kg TPS weight from the 75,266 kg dry
weight I got for a reconfigured orbiter, to get a 65,034 kg dry
weight.
This NASA page says a saved weight of 450 lbs off the OMS system
amounted to 10% of its weight:

OMS/RCS PODS.
http://science.ksc.nasa.gov/shuttle/technology/sts-newsref/sts_coord.html#sts_oms_pods

So I'll remove the OMS system to save 4500 lbs, 2,000 kg, bringing
the dry weight now to 63,035 kg.
This page gives the left payload bay door weight as 2,375 lbs. and
the right as 2,535 lbs., and both doors containing radiator systems at
an additional weight of 833 lbs each:

PAYLOAD BAY DOORS.
http://science.ksc.nasa.gov/shuttle/technology/sts-newsref/stsref-toc.html#payload_bay_doors

These won't be needed so removing these would save 6,576 lbs, 2,990
kg, bringing the dry weight to 60,000 kg.
The Buran showed it's possible for the shuttle to have a completely
automated ascent and descent, so I'll remove the life support
components from the mass to use the orbiter as an unmanned first
stage. For lack of any other reference on the mass of these components
I'll subtract off the numbers given on the Astronautix Atlantis page
of "Crew Seats and Provisions" as 750 kg and "Environmental Control
System" as 2,500 kg, for a total saving of 3,250 kg, bringing the dry
weight to 56,750 kg.
Probably the fuel cells and the tanks to hold the on board LOX and
LH2 for the fuel cells could be removed, since as a first stage its
flight would only last minutes rather than the days of a manned
orbiter flight. For such short flights, lightweight batteries or
electrical generators powered by the engines would suffice. This page
gives the fuel cell's oxygen tank weight as 201 lbs. and the hydrogen
tank weight as 216, and says there are a maximum of 5 pairs of tanks:

POWER REACTANT STORAGE AND DISTRIBUTION.
http://science.ksc.nasa.gov/shuttle/technology/sts-newsref/sts-eps.html#sts-eps-prsd

I'll take the total fuel cell's tank weight as 2,085 lbs, 948 kg.
There are three fuel cells each weighing about 120 kg, for a total of
360 kg. So I'll subtract off 1,308 kg from the dry weight to bring it
to 55,442 kg.

II.) The manned space program is in a quandary now because of the
ballooning costs overruns on the Ares I system that was supposed to
act as the next manned transportation system. The primary difficulty
was the Ares I first stage boosters. Originally the development cost
was set at $1.8 billion dollars, though fixes to for example the
excessive vibration generated undoubtedly has increased that cost:

Aug. 10, 2007
NASA Awards First Stage Contract for Ares Rockets.
"WASHINGTON - NASA has signed a $1.8 billion contract with Alliant
Techsystems, known as ATK, located near Brigham City, Utah, for the
design, development, testing, and evaluation of the first stage of
the
Ares I and Ares V launch vehicles."
http://www.nasa.gov/home/hqnews/2007/aug/HQ_C07036_Ares_first_stage.html

Moreover, weight growth and a short fall in the delta-V delivered by
this first stage drove costly adjustments of the upper stage as well.
My point is adapting the shuttle or the Buran for first stage use
would vastly reduce the cost for a first stage. You would have then
several options for manned flight all of which would be cheaper than
using the Ares I first stage solid motors and all of which would allow
a return to space at a faster time scale than the original Ares I
plan.
I'll give a calculation that you could still carry the planned upper
stage and payload of the Ares I with the reconfigured shuttle as first
stage. This page gives the specifications of the Ares I:

Space Launch Report - Ares I.
http://www.spacelaunchreport.com/ares1.html

The gross weight including payload is given as 912,660 kg and the
gross weight of the first stage as 732,550 kg. So the gross weight of
the Ares I second stage plus payload is 180,110 kg.
Then the gross weight for the 55,442 kg dry weight of the
reconfigured shuttle, plus 300,000 kg propellant load, plus 180,110 kg
second stage and payload is 535,552 kg, 1,178,214 lbs. But the 3 NK-33
engines I was suggesting to use only put out a total of 1,018,518 lbs.
of thrust at sea level. For this purpose you would need a fourth
NK-33. The dry weight is now 56,664, the gross weight is 536,774 kg,
1,180,903 lbs., and the sea level thrust of the 4 engines is 1,358,024
lbs.
Using the average Isp of the NK-33 as the midpoint of the sea level
and vacuum Isp's at 315 s, the achieved delta-V would be 315*9.8*ln
(536,774/(56,664+180,110)) = 2,527 m/s, comparable to the equivalent
delta-V, speed + altitude, provided by the Ares I first stage. The
achieved delta-V is actually higher than this since the rocket spends
most of the time at high altitude, where the Isp is closer to the
vacuum value.
Note that if you want to increase the delta-V, the space occupied by
the crew compartment is now empty. This gives an additional 74 cubic
meters that could be used for propellant, which amounts to 74,000 kg
additional lox/kerosene propellant that could be carried.
Then we could still use the planned upper stage of the Ares I while
having a significantly lower development cost and per launch cost of
the now reusable first stage. Still the time when we could reach
flight status would be dependent on the development of the upper
stage. However, we don't need to use the large Ares I upper stage and
Orion capsule if we just want manned flight. I'll show in a following
post we could get a smaller and reusable manned upper stage at a much
lower cost also than the Ares I upper stage and Orion capsule, that
will also allow a much quicker return to manned flight.

III.) I wish also to argue however that for these methods, for the
reconfigured shuttle/Buran first stage and smaller reusable manned
upper stage, we don't want to use the standard procurement methods
with the "Old Space" aerospace companies. Robert Zubrin has some
insightful observations about the "cost-plus" government contracts
that the large aerospace companies get in his book, [u]Entering Space:
Creating a Spacefaring Civilization[/u].
In the chapter, "The Age of the Dinosaurs" referring to the "Old
Space" companies, he first comments that high launch costs drive the
tendency to make satellites be highly reliable which drives the cost
for the satellite higher. And conversely if your satellite is already
very expensive, say a $1 billion Air Force satellite, then there is
little incentive to reduce launch costs since at that satellite price
a launch cost of $100 million or zero makes little difference.
Then Zubrin says:

"Beyond these considerations stands the government contracting system
known as "cost plus," which has been in place for some time now in the
United States. According to the people who invented this system, it is
essential that corporations be prevented from earning excessive
profits on government contracts. Therefore, rather than negotiate a
fixed price for a piece of hardware and allow the company to make a
large profit or loss on the job depending on what its internal costs
might be, regulators have demanded that the company document its
internal costs in detail and then be allowed to charge a small fixed
percentage fee (generally in the 10 percent range) above those costs
as profit. This system has served to multiply the costs of government
contracting tremendously, so much so that it has produced public
scandals when news leaks out about the military paying $700 for a
hammer or a toilet seat cover."
[u]Entering Space[/u], by Robert Zubrin, p. 24.

Then I'm suggesting that the "New Space" companies rather than going
through the usual "cost-plus" financing from the government could
purchase a shuttle/Buran on their own and develop the manned reusable
upper stage on their own with the idea of making a profit. I'm arguing
the development cost of this reconfigured first stage and the small
upper stage would be so low that this can be profitable both for
satellite launch and for now fully orbital space tourism.


Bob Clark
Me
2010-01-20 00:12:31 UTC
Permalink
More Clarke bullshit that is not based on any engineering. He claims
to be a math instructor. This idea has been discredited on many other
forums. Yet Clark keeps pursuing it, stacking more baseless claims on
top of baseless opinions. He does this with many of his ideas, which
many if not all are viable nor feasible. I see this as a sign of
mental issues. I fear for our future when clueless people like him
spread their crap across the internet. When a person of educational
responsibility goes unchecked and spreads ideas that are contrary to
physics and excepted engineering standards, there should be some
course of action to bring this to the attention of his employers
Jorge R. Frank
2010-01-20 03:57:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Me
More Clarke bullshit that is not based on any engineering. He claims
to be a math instructor. This idea has been discredited on many other
forums. Yet Clark keeps pursuing it, stacking more baseless claims on
top of baseless opinions. He does this with many of his ideas, which
many if not all are viable nor feasible. I see this as a sign of
mental issues. I fear for our future when clueless people like him
spread their crap across the internet. When a person of educational
responsibility goes unchecked and spreads ideas that are contrary to
physics and excepted engineering standards, there should be some
course of action to bring this to the attention of his employers
Just so you know, for those of us who already have Clark killfiled,
these responses without quoting the original don't really add anything
since we don't see the k00kspew you're responding to.

Not that that's *necessarily* a bad thing, mind you...
Pat Flannery
2010-01-20 06:29:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jorge R. Frank
Just so you know, for those of us who already have Clark killfiled,
these responses without quoting the original don't really add anything
since we don't see the k00kspew you're responding to.
Not that that's *necessarily* a bad thing, mind you...
A large toad would add to the "sure witch" evidence also. ;-)

Pat
John Doe
2010-01-20 05:16:31 UTC
Permalink
Since we are discussing fantasy stuff.


What would it take to send a shuttle without crew/cargo on a one way
trip to the moon ?

Once Shuttle is in LEO, would a pair of SRBs that are strapped on to the
orbiter provide sufficient delta V to get to the moon ? Or would that be
"not even close" ?

What about if the ET could be refueled in orbit. Would it give the
shuttle with a full ET enough delta V to make it to the moon ? or "not
even close" ?

Now, once the shuttle gets past LaGrange and accelerates towards the
moon, would its OMS engines have enough UMmph to get it into orbit
around the moon ?

What sort of landing could be made on the moon ? Could shuttle descend
in vertical attitude with its OMS engines controlling descent and
forward speed, and at last minute, thrusters fire to put it in
horizontal position and it lands on its tires ?

Or are the OMS engines not even close to being able to control descent
rate at moon's gravity ?


Are there any orbital mechanics tricks that would allow a shuttle to
land without using much fuel ? (for instan,ce skipping the "enter orbit"
part.
Robert Clark
2010-01-20 17:41:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jorge R. Frank
More Clarke bullshit that is not based on any engineering.  He claims
to be a math instructor.  This idea has been discredited on many other
forums.  Yet Clark keeps pursuing it, stacking more baseless claims on
top of baseless opinions.  He does this with many of his ideas, which
many if not all are viable nor feasible.  I see this as a sign of
mental issues. I fear for our future when clueless people like him
spread their crap across the internet.   When a person of educational
responsibility goes unchecked and spreads ideas that are contrary to
physics and excepted engineering standards, there should be some
course of action to bring this to the attention of his employers
Just so you know, for those of us who already have Clark killfiled,
these responses without quoting the original don't really add anything
since we don't see the k00kspew you're responding to.
Not that that's *necessarily* a bad thing, mind you...
Jorge, seems to be giving you good advice Mr, er, "Me". You seem to
be getting very much exercised over my posts.
Best would be not to read them at all - and not to respond to them.

Bob Clark
Pat Flannery
2010-01-20 06:26:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Me
When a person of educational
responsibility goes unchecked and spreads ideas that are contrary to
physics and excepted engineering standards, there should be some
course of action to bring this to the attention of his employers
You get the pointy hat, I'll get the fake wart.
Then we'll send them a photo of him sitting on a pair of scales, showing
that he obviously weighs the same as a duck.
Then they will surely burn him. ;-)

Pat
Robert Clark
2010-01-20 16:07:36 UTC
Permalink
 This article describes the plan to sell the orbiters minus engines
For sale: Used space shuttles. Asking price: $42 million apiece
By John Matson
Dec 18, 2008 04:00 PM in Spacehttp://www.scientificamerican.com/blog/post.cfm?id=for-sale-used-spac...
 It is currently intended only to be sold to educational institutions,
or governmental agencies.
 The Air Force is looking for designs for reusable first stage
boosters for two-stage-to-orbit (TSTO) systems. Then it might be able
to be used for this purpose. Most likely you would use kerosene fuel
for this since dense fuels are more suitable for first stages.
 ...
Deep Discount on Space Shuttles.
By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
Published: January 16, 2010
"CAPE CANAVERAL, Fla. (AP) — Here is a recession bargain: the space
shuttle. NASA has slashed the price of the 1970s-era spaceships to
$28.8 million apiece from $42 million."
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/17/science/space/17nasa.html

What I found really interesting was this passage:

"As for the space shuttle main engines, those are now free. NASA
advertised them in December 2008 for $400,000 to $800,000 each, but no
one expressed interest. So now the engines are available, along with
other shuttle artifacts, for the cost of transportation and handling.
"Assembly will be required, however."

I doubt though you could keep these engines and be profitable as a
suborbital tourism vehicle or first stage booster. The maintenance
costs on these engines are just so high. However, the most maintenance
intensive parts were the turbopumps for the high pressure cryogenic
LOX and liquid hydrogen. If you could switch out these turbopumps to
lower performance dense propellant ones, or find some other method
rather then the original turbopumps for pumping the LOX/LH2 at these
volumes and high pressures it might be doable.


Bob Clark
Robert Clark
2010-01-20 17:49:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Clark
 This article describes the plan to sell the orbiters minus engines
For sale: Used space shuttles. Asking price: $42 million apiece
By John Matson
Dec 18, 2008 04:00 PM in Spacehttp://www.scientificamerican.com/blog/post.cfm?id=for-sale-used-spac...
 It is currently intended only to be sold to educational institutions,
or governmental agencies.
 The Air Force is looking for designs for reusable first stage
boosters for two-stage-to-orbit (TSTO) systems. Then it might be able
to be used for this purpose. Most likely you would use kerosene fuel
for this since dense fuels are more suitable for first stages.
 ...
Deep Discount on Space Shuttles.
By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
Published: January 16, 2010
"CAPE CANAVERAL, Fla. (AP) — Here is a recession bargain: the space
shuttle. NASA has slashed the price of the 1970s-era spaceships to
$28.8 million apiece from $42 million."http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/17/science/space/17nasa.html
"As for the space shuttle main engines, those are now free. NASA
advertised them in December 2008 for $400,000 to $800,000 each, but no
one expressed interest. So now the engines are available, along with
other shuttle artifacts, for the cost of transportation and handling.
"Assembly will be required, however."
 I doubt though you could keep these engines and be profitable as a
suborbital tourism vehicle or first stage booster. The maintenance
costs on these engines are just so high. However, the most maintenance
intensive parts were the turbopumps for the high pressure cryogenic
LOX and liquid hydrogen. If you could switch out these turbopumps to
lower performance dense propellant ones, or find some other method
rather then the original turbopumps for pumping the LOX/LH2 at these
volumes and high pressures it might be doable.
Where would space shuttle land at Wright-Patt?
By John Nolan, Staff Writer Updated 5:17 PM Saturday, January 16, 2010
"NASA said it will cost a shuttle recipient $28.8 million to prepare
the shuttle for display and transport it. Metcalf has said he sees no
reason for an exchange of money between the Air Force and NASA, both
government agencies."
http://www.daytondailynews.com/news/dayton-news/where-would-space-shuttle-land-at-wright-patt--496844.html?cxtype=rss_local-news

The Air Force wants low cost reusable winged boosters for its
"Reusable Booster System" program. Then if NASA would agree to it it
could have the airframe for such a booster literally for free.


Bob Clark
Me
2010-01-20 18:43:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Clark
Post by Robert Clark
 This article describes the plan to sell the orbiters minus engines
For sale: Used space shuttles. Asking price: $42 million apiece
By John Matson
Dec 18, 2008 04:00 PM in Spacehttp://www.scientificamerican.com/blog/post.cfm?id=for-sale-used-spac...
 It is currently intended only to be sold to educational institutions,
or governmental agencies.
 The Air Force is looking for designs for reusable first stage
boosters for two-stage-to-orbit (TSTO) systems. Then it might be able
to be used for this purpose. Most likely you would use kerosene fuel
for this since dense fuels are more suitable for first stages.
 ...
Deep Discount on Space Shuttles.
By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
Published: January 16, 2010
"CAPE CANAVERAL, Fla. (AP) — Here is a recession bargain: the space
shuttle. NASA has slashed the price of the 1970s-era spaceships to
$28.8 million apiece from $42 million."http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/17/science/space/17nasa.html
"As for the space shuttle main engines, those are now free. NASA
advertised them in December 2008 for $400,000 to $800,000 each, but no
one expressed interest. So now the engines are available, along with
other shuttle artifacts, for the cost of transportation and handling.
"Assembly will be required, however."
 I doubt though you could keep these engines and be profitable as a
suborbital tourism vehicle or first stage booster. The maintenance
costs on these engines are just so high. However, the most maintenance
intensive parts were the turbopumps for the high pressure cryogenic
LOX and liquid hydrogen. If you could switch out these turbopumps to
lower performance dense propellant ones, or find some other method
rather then the original turbopumps for pumping the LOX/LH2 at these
volumes and high pressures it might be doable.
Where would space shuttle land at Wright-Patt?
By John Nolan, Staff Writer Updated 5:17 PM Saturday, January 16, 2010
"NASA said it will cost a shuttle recipient $28.8 million to prepare
the shuttle for display and transport it. Metcalf has said he sees no
reason for an exchange of money between the Air Force and NASA, both
government agencies."http://www.daytondailynews.com/news/dayton-news/where-would-space-shu...
The Air Force wants low cost reusable winged boosters for its
"Reusable Booster System" program. Then if NASA would agree to it it
could have the airframe for such a booster literally for free.
   Bob Clark
The USAF isn't as stupid as you, and knows it won't work
OM
2010-01-20 19:42:00 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 20 Jan 2010 10:43:22 -0800 (PST), Me
Post by Me
The USAF isn't as stupid as you, and knows it won't work
...If you're so fucking smart, Charlie, then why can't you trim your
goddamn quotes?

OM

--

]=====================================[
] OMBlog - http://www.io.com/~o_m/omworld [
] Let's face it: Sometimes you *need* [
] an obnoxious opinion in your day! [
]=====================================[
Me
2010-01-20 23:59:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by OM
On Wed, 20 Jan 2010 10:43:22 -0800 (PST), Me
Post by Me
The USAF isn't as stupid as you, and knows it won't work
...If you're so fucking smart, Charlie, then why can't you trim your
goddamn quotes?
                               OM
--
  ]=====================================[
  ]   OMBlog -http://www.io.com/~o_m/omworld  [
  ]        Let's face it: Sometimes you *need*         [
  ]          an obnoxious opinion in your day!           [
  ]=====================================[
Because Jorge stated that if I do, then many wouldn't see them.
And if it pisses you off, then I must be doing things right.
Furthermore, if you don't like my posts, then killfile me.
But why haven't you? Afraid to miss some info?
Greg D. Moore (Strider)
2010-01-21 00:26:57 UTC
Permalink
"Me" <***@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:13947404-1c3d-46b9-a4ac-***@p24g2000yqm.googlegroups.com...

OM, in his usual acerbic way has a point, TRIM the quotes, don't shave them
post bald.

There's an art to it. Trim out stuff that's not immediately relevant (note
I cut your comment about the IQ of the AF and OM's sig.)

Of course some people you will never please, but the general rule is quote
no more than necessary. (Back in the bad old days many systems would refuse
to let you post if your ratio of new lines to old lines was too low. And
then warn you, "Warning you're about to post to hundreds, possibly thousands
of systems around the world. Are you sure you want to do this?")
Post by OM
...If you're so fucking smart, Charlie, then why can't you trim your
goddamn quotes?
OM
Because Jorge stated that if I do, then many wouldn't see them.
And if it pisses you off, then I must be doing things right.
Furthermore, if you don't like my posts, then killfile me.
But why haven't you? Afraid to miss some info?
--
Greg Moore
Ask me about lily, an RPI based CMC.
Jorge R. Frank
2010-01-21 04:14:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Me
Post by OM
...If you're so fucking smart, Charlie, then why can't you trim your
goddamn quotes?
Because Jorge stated that if I do, then many wouldn't see them.
You don't have to quote *all* of it, just the part you're responding to,
and just enough for others following the thread to get the context. Like
Greg said, there's an art to it.
Pat Flannery
2010-01-20 22:31:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Clark
Where would space shuttle land at Wright-Patt?
Jeeze, I don't know...maybe on its runway?
It's a Air Force base, and those tend to have runways:
Loading Image...

Pat
Greg D. Moore (Strider)
2010-01-20 20:50:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pat Flannery
Post by Robert Clark
Where would space shuttle land at Wright-Patt?
Jeeze, I don't know...maybe on its runway?
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/images/GEO_Wright-Patterson_AFB_lg.jpg
Pat
Now Pat, that's not fair, confusing Robert with facts like that.
--
Greg Moore
Ask me about lily, an RPI based CMC.
Fred J. McCall
2010-01-20 21:09:59 UTC
Permalink
"Greg D. Moore \(Strider\)" <***@greenms.com> wrote:

:"Pat Flannery" <***@daktel.com> wrote in message
:news:_oOdnQlBW-9l-***@posted.northdakotatelephone...
:> Robert Clark wrote:
:>> Where would space shuttle land at Wright-Patt?
:>
:> Jeeze, I don't know...maybe on its runway?
:> It's a Air Force base, and those tend to have runways:
:> http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/images/GEO_Wright-Patterson_AFB_lg.jpg
:>
:> Pat
:
:Now Pat, that's not fair, confusing Robert with facts like that.
:

23R/05L would probably work. It's a few thousand feet shorter than
KSC or Edwards, but probably still long enough.

Of course, if you're not talking about one on reentry, it's more than
long enough for the transporter.
--
"Insisting on perfect safety is for people who don't have the balls to
live in the real world."
-- Mary Shafer, NASA Dryden
Pat Flannery
2010-01-21 08:11:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Greg D. Moore (Strider)
Post by Pat Flannery
Post by Robert Clark
Where would space shuttle land at Wright-Patt?
Jeeze, I don't know...maybe on its runway?
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/images/GEO_Wright-Patterson_AFB_lg.jpg
Pat
Now Pat, that's not fair, confusing Robert with facts like that.
There's even a runway right by the museum, but I don't know if it's big
enough to land a 747 on.
Did they put the B-70 indoors? It's not on the Google Earth image of the
museum.

Pat

Robert Clark
2010-01-20 21:05:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pat Flannery
Post by Robert Clark
Where would space shuttle land at Wright-Patt?
Jeeze, I don't know...maybe on its runway?
It's a Air Force base, and those tend to have runways:http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/images/GEO_Wright-Patterson_AFB_l...
Pat
Perhaps I should have quoted more of the article. The question in the
article being debated between the Air Force and NASA was whether the
runway was long enough for the 747 carrier plane for the shuttle.

Bob Clark
Fred J. McCall
2010-01-21 02:23:42 UTC
Permalink
Robert Clark <***@yahoo.com> wrote:

:On Jan 20, 5:31 pm, Pat Flannery <***@daktel.com> wrote:
:> Robert Clark wrote:
:> > Where would space shuttle land at Wright-Patt?
:>
:> Jeeze, I don't know...maybe on its runway?
:> It's a Air Force base, and those tend to have runways:http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/images/GEO_Wright-Patterson_AFB_l...
:>
:> Pat
:
: Perhaps I should have quoted more of the article. The question in the
:article being debated between the Air Force and NASA was whether the
:runway was long enough for the 747 carrier plane for the shuttle.
:

I would think that 13,000 feet would be God's Own Plenty.

The SCA with a Shuttle on board only has a range of 1,000 miles. We've
had Shuttles carried across the country. The SCA is landing SOMEWHERE
several times during that trip in order to take on more fuel.

Hint: There are damned few runways much longer than 13,000 feet,
except those intended for the Shuttle itself returning from orbit.
--
"Ignorance is preferable to error, and he is less remote from the
truth who believes nothing than he who believes what is wrong."
-- Thomas Jefferson
J. Clarke
2010-01-21 02:45:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Clark
Post by Pat Flannery
Post by Robert Clark
Where would space shuttle land at Wright-Patt?
Jeeze, I don't know...maybe on its runway?
It's a Air Force base, and those tend to have
runways:http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/images/GEO_Wright-Patterson_AFB_l...
Pat
Perhaps I should have quoted more of the article. The question in the
article being debated between the Air Force and NASA was whether the
runway was long enough for the 747 carrier plane for the shuttle.
I don't know if you are familiar with the Air Force Museum. If you go to
Google Earth and find "Wright Patterson" and follow the line of the main
runway about 3 miles southwest you'll find a triangular arrangement of
taxiways and runways, with the southermost of them marked with "X"s--the
buildings on the western leg of that triangle are the museum. It does not
have easy access to the 12,000 foot main runways at Wright Patterson and
instead has its own 7,000 foot runway. Aircraft that cannot land on the
museum's runway have to be towed by street from the WPAFB runway to the
museum. This was, for example, done with the B-70. It's usually a big deal
because the streets were not really planned to allow it and it usually
involves relocating or removing poles, signs, overhead wires, and all sorts
of other stuff.
John Doe
2010-01-21 04:17:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Clark
"As for the space shuttle main engines, those are now free.
I doubt though you could keep these engines and be profitable as a
suborbital tourism vehicle or first stage booster.
Aren't SSMEs some of the best performing engines around ? Richard
Branson might be able to run London-Sydney on 90 minutes non-stop with
those engines !
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